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We replaced the original magazine illustration for this article with the least offensive image we could find.




If you're a typical VICE reader, you're about halfway through elementary school—or maybe you're a member of the magazine's ever-expanding preschool readership. Either way, you're very young, and your mind and sexuality are easily molded by bad people who want to hurt you.

There are a lot of bad people in the American educational system who are being forced by a lot of bad people in the financial world to tell you a lot of bad facts about history that are designed to make you feel bad about yourself. This is especially true if you're a WHITE schoolchild.

If you're white like Uncle Jim, your teachers will try to convince you that you're responsible—even though you're only, what?, eight years old?—for a bunch of bad, bad things that happened a long, long time ago.
If you're a black schoolchild, I'm sure your parents will have plenty of excuses for why your ancestors were enslaved.

But chances are that you're white—at least for the next generation or two, those are the chances—so I've collected a bunch of DUMB MYTHS and SMART FACTS about slavery that you can use to clown your teachers and everyone else at school!



Black slavery in America was pretty bad, kids, but it wasn't anything special. Throughout history, every color of the rainbow has owned slaves and been enslaved. The dictionary tells us that the root word of "slave" is "Slav," because Slavic peoples—who are REALLY pale and white—were the primary slave population throughout the Middle Ages. And though your teachers will never tell you this, there have been long stretches of history where Africans have owned white people as slaves! How do you like THEM apples? The empire of Carthage transported white slaves to Africa. The African Moors ruled Spain for 500 years and sent white Christian slaves to Egypt. And poor, defenseless white kids—just like you!—were kidnapped by Muslims during the Children's Crusade and sold into Egyptian slavery.


No, kids—the blacks, Arabs, and Jews were involved, too.
• BLACKS: The president of an African country called Benin recently apologized to American blacks for his country's role in the slave trade. Slavery was common throughout Africa, with entire tribes becoming enslaved after losing battles. Tribal chieftains often sold their defeated foes to white slave-traders. In the late 1700s, a freed black American slave named Ottobah Cugoano wrote, "I was first kidnapped and betrayed by my own complexion, who were the first cause of my exile and slavery."
• ARABS: The word "Abed" means "slave" in Arabic. It also means "black." The "Holy Land" of the Middle East has hosted far more African slaves than North America ever did.
• JEWS: The oldest synagogue in America was built by Aaron Lopez, a Jewish slave trader. Jewish writers such as Cecil Roth, Wilfred Samuels, Seymour B. Liebman, and Moshe Kahan acknowledge that Jews were involved in all levels of the African slave trade.
In fact, children, white Christians were the first group to make a concerted effort to ABOLISH slavery.


Of the 10 to 15 million Africans who were transplanted to the New World, no more than 6 percent—around 400,000—went to the Northern Hemisphere. Almost all of them went to South America, but you don't see your teachers giving Brazil a hard time, do you?


Blacks were never close to a majority in America, so it's mathematically impossible for most whites to have owned black slaves. At the peak of black slavery in the South, only 6 percent of Southern whites owned slaves. If you include the white people in the North, it means that only 1.4 percent of white Americans owned black slaves at the HEIGHT of slavery.


An estimated 3,000 blacks owned a total of 20,000 black slaves in the year 1860. One study concluded that 28 percent of free blacks owned slaves, which is a far higher percentage than that of free whites who owned slaves.


Although your textbooks are silent about it, most historians agree that two-thirds of ALL whites came to the colonies in some form of bondage. Legal papers on both sides of the ocean referred to them as "slaves." White slaves outnumbered black slaves in America throughout the 1600s.


Hundreds of thousands of white slaves were kidnapped and brought to America; their middle-passage death rates were comparable to those of black slaves; they were sold at auction and traded for livestock, they were routinely beaten—sometimes to death—and an estimated one half of them died before gaining freedom. It's possible that more whites came to America against their will than blacks. Historians from both ends of the political spectrum say that white slaves were treated worse than black slaves.


England only started sending convicts to Australia in 1776—when the American Revolution made it impossible for them to continue sending their convicts here. By 1776, more than 50,000 convict slave laborers had already been sent to America. That's a lotta criminals, kids!


According to statistics, farm work is relatively safe. It is far more dangerous to be a lumberjack, Alaskan crab fisherman, coal miner, or cabdriver. Either way, white slaves were forced to pick cotton under the hot sun, too, which is where they got those red necks.


American blacks enjoy the highest standard of living of any black population on earth. Their average per capita income is TWENTY to FIFTY times higher than in any of the African countries from where they were displaced. It's true that part of America's wealth was built on black slavery; it is also true that American blacks are enjoying the fruits of that wealth. You, fair child, whether you were born black or white, weren't born in debt to anyone. You were born free. Don't let the bad people take it away from you.


When General Robert E. Lee surrendered to Ulysses S. Grant, it had been nearly 20 years since Lee owned slaves—he freed his slaves in the late 1840s. In 1856, five years before the Civil War started, he wrote that slavery was "a moral and political evil." On the other hand, General Grant STILL owned slaves at the end of the Civil War, because Abe Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation cleverly outlawed slavery only in the South. Grant had stated that he would refuse to fight if he thought the war had anything to do with slavery. And hey, kids, even if it WAS fought to end slavery, how often do you see the descendants of slaves thanking the 600,000 or so white soldiers who died in the fight to free them?


The US government estimates that 50,000 humans are brought into this country every year for the purpose of forced labor. Various agencies estimate that there are anywhere from 27 to 200 million humans currently enslaved worldwide. (Compare this to only four and a half million slaves at American slavery's peak.) Most of these slaves live in South Asia, Africa, and South America. Their labor comes far cheaper and is much more profitable than black American slavery was. In many horrifying cases, poverty-stricken women sell their vaginas on the black market and become lifelong sex slaves to fat, stinky men for as little as $1,500. In today's dollars, a black slave in the American South cost approximately $40,000.


Remember, kids—the enemy's all around you, and he comes in all colors. Slavery exists in so many ways, children. Open your eyes before they shackle your asses.


Click here for an interview about this article with author Jim Goad.

Jim Goad goes more into detail in his book The Redneck Manifesto. See more of the facts on this from Jim Goad's book here.



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Comments:

Subject: Jews & Slavery
Date: Jul 28 2005 03:17:13 PM
Author: CRAIG TAYLOR

Here's the big picture
-race does exist
-no one culture is superior to another (you like yours because it's yours as in the coffee mug that says "world's greatest mom")
-jews are more interested in promoting diversity than most ethnic groups
-slavery was not a black white thing it was a rich poor thing. The white coal miners of the north had comparable lives
-reparations is hogwash
-nazi jokes are boring
-censorship is lame



Subject: an experiment
Date: Jul 28 2005 03:10:30 PM
Author: Bobby

Let's see if this gets deleted...

I don't like to ascribe motives to people other than the motives that they actually claim, but in the case of Earl Raab, who at one time was the president of Brandeis University, he said that he looked forward to the day when the United States would have a nonwhite majority, because only then would he feel confident that the United States would no longer be capable of establishing a Nazi-like, "exterminate the Jews" regime.

Well, what he's in effect saying is, "Unless all you white people are diluted by Haitians and Mexicans and Guatemalans, America could rise up against the Jews anytime." These new people are certainly not going to have any more concern about Jewish interest than whites. He's proposing a process that is going to destroy our country as we know it, as our ancestors built it, so that he can sleep well at night. I think that that's practically a declaration of war.



Subject: none
Date: Jul 28 2005 03:09:11 PM
Author: Luke the Drifter

Again, Bobby/Vice, thank you for proving my point.

Any non-reverential mention of Auschwitz is completely unacceptable. All talk of the so-called Holocaust must utilize the most respectful and apologetic terminology.

You've explicitly confirmed that we can talk all we want about reparations, blacks v. whites, and slavery. It's perfectly acceptable to demean, belittle, and insult blacks, both directly and indirectly.

But God forbid we discuss the Jews! That is simply beyond the pale! (the latter phrase, incidentally, references yet another historical incident in which the Jews got their just desserts- they were forcibly relocated beyond the so-called "Pale of Settlement" by the Russian government in response to their anti-social conduct).

Note carefully, Blacks: your enemy is not whites, but the Jews.




Subject: Fuck-Face
Date: Jul 28 2005 02:49:17 PM
Author: Crab

Luke, you and your half baked theories can fuck off back to oik-ville with the other oiks. You obviously had your tender feelings hurt, and like the good Lutheran got an inch of rope and wanted to be a cowboy. Now you're shrieking away like a hysterical bitch, and have dis-credited all your heartfelt, labour-intensive research. You're a dim but potentially nice lad if you could just learn to shut your filthy trumpet.



Subject: Dear fuckheads
Date: Jul 28 2005 02:51:00 PM
Author: Vice

yes, there were some nuggets within the deleted posts but one juvenile Auschvitz joke wrecks the whole post. If you want to talk about Judaism and multiculturalism you're going to have to be a grown up.



Subject: Vice Grip on Dialogue
Date: Jul 28 2005 02:24:15 PM
Author: Pete Sake

For once, I have to agree with Luke. Vice's motives for squelching this discourse are pretty transparent. Many of the deleted messages contained worthwhile and/or mildly entertaining statements comparable to previous messages. There were ample diverging opinions about the Jewish race to keep the conversation balanced. The remarks on Jews were no more caustic and no less on-topic than previous comments about other races.

Of course, it's Vice's website to operate as it deems fit. I'm sure the magazine/website has enjoyed a surge in reader interest as a result of this item and the ensuing discussion. A truly wise businessman would grab the fruits of the controversy and run away in the opposite direction before the controversy bites him in the ass. But it's worth noting that Vice has censored a frank discussion on race spurred by an article which, at its core, encourages frank discussions on race. This suggests that Vice doesn't really believe in what it publishes.



Subject: poor lad
Date: Jul 28 2005 02:07:22 PM
Author: popshot

Fuck, you're an aryanclichebot aren't you luke? Whinge whinge whinge just because you can't insult people.



Subject: none
Date: Jul 28 2005 01:41:49 PM
Author: Luke the Drifter

Guess you did something right in publishing a good article that provoked a lot of interest on the part of your readers.

Too bad you won't allow the discussion continue without paternalistic oversight.

You excuse is lame and transparent. I'd say that 88% of all comments responding to all Vice's articles contain juvenile name-calling which is tangentially related, (at best), to the topic at hand.

Admit that you censored this discussion not because of the name-calling, but because of your displeasure at the topic presently under discussion: namely, the problematic "contributions" of jews.

Nice work, Goldberg.



Subject: Yes, this is censorship
Date: Jul 28 2005 01:31:12 PM
Author: Vice

We just killed a bunch of posts because they were going off on a name-calling tangent and had little to do with the article. Not sure if there's still more to say about this 1,200 wd article now that we're up to 250,000 wds of commentary.



Subject: none
Date: Jul 28 2005 01:29:30 PM
Author: Luke the Drifter

Censorship of a relatively benign discussion at the behest of Jewish complainants?

Thank you for proving my point.

I rest my case.



Subject: jew bashing
Date: Jul 28 2005 01:03:03 PM
Author: Bobby

the problem with all this "Jews control the world" stuff is it assumes Jews are on the same page about, well, Judaism. Not even Israelis are on the same page. if you made all the Palestinians vanish tomorrow you'd probably have a civil war within Israel. The orthodox ones would be battling the tolerant ones. They fucking hate each other already.

In fact, that's the problem with all racial conspiracies. There are just too many that disagree with the mainstream.

Anyway, enough with the Jewish conspiracy shit. This article is about the existence of white slaves.



Subject: Gould, continued
Date: Jul 27 2005 10:25:57 PM
Author: Luke

cont.

destined to inherit the world from those being extinguished (one shrinks from saying "the inferior" but Gould does intimate that competitive ability between sibling species is often the deciding force). One way such an event can be defeated is through too much interbreeding - if the group that has undergone the hopeful evolutionary changes breeds too much with other populations, their distinctiveness is diluted, and they become reabsorbed into the general ruck. Now, while free of all moral content, Gould's theory bears a striking resemblance to Nazi race theory - with its themes of competition between genetically distinct groups, victory or extinction, the threat of losing distinctive identity through the pollution of mixing with other breeds, the replacement of other populations as they expand their territory, etc. It lacks only the specific claim that "Aryans" are superior and have made the revolutionary leap in the evolutionary ladder. That gives it a potential appeal to many ethnicities, not just Germans, and some of Gould's ideas have indeed seeped into Le Pen-like European thinking, if not beyond.




Subject: none
Date: Jul 27 2005 10:24:06 PM
Author: Luke

http://www.psych.ucsb.edu/research/cep/slatedialog.html#2not
e9 />
Gould invokes many levels of selection, but is especially notable for advancing his own peculiar theory of how large groups function as biological competitors -- species level selection. In Gould's view, most evolutionary change takes place when closely related biological lineages compete, with one surviving and spreading through the others' ranges while the others go extinct. He gets to this by taking Ernst Mayr's widely accepted neo-Darwinian theory of speciation - speciation occurs through a drop in gene flow between populations - and supercharging it with talk about how genetic revolutions and radical re-organizations can happen suddenly rather than gradually in populations or incipient species: the "return of the hopeful monster" as he calls one of his essays. Gould is a relentless critic of gradualist orthodoxy - i.e., that substantial adaptive change usually takes long periods of time, and one might think of him as an advocate of a new more Hegelian genetics. Of course, there is not much difference between an incipient species and a "race", and in Gould's world of sudden genetic revolutions, there is not necessarily any difference at all: one moment a race, the next a new species. So, in Gould's world, populations commonly undergo sudden and significantly differentiating evolutionary changes, with one eventually emerging victorious as the forebears of a new species



Subject: (continued)
Date: Jul 27 2005 04:12:45 PM
Author: dude

"They DO NOT explain the excuse for race as a social, culture and economic construct related to ancestory."

No, the scientific data does not offer a clear-cut explanation for differences in average achievement between racial groups, but scientific data does suggest that recognized racial groups are distinguishable genetically. And, if this is the case, it certainly doesn't seem unreasonable (especially given substantial achievement gaps between groups), that there could be differences in gene frequencies relating to intelligence.

"Know what else? You guys are based the whole "intelligence" thing off of genetic material THAT DOESN'T EXIST. "All it takes is for the genes to be found."

WELL NO SHIT."

Saying that something hasn't been found, and that it does not exist are very, very different things. In any case, behavior genetics data (based on twin and adoption studies) suggest large (broad-sense) heritability for intelligence, and there certainly isn't any evidence for zero or trivial heritability.



Subject: n/a
Date: Jul 27 2005 04:00:14 PM
Author: dude

"All that polymorphic loci nonsense doesn't flatly prove the scienetific relevance of race in a strictly biological sense. That's just telling us what we already know about evolution.

Fact: There's no biological definition of race, but there certainly are variations in DNA that occurred when the human race multiplied and evolved in geographic isolation. These variations explain the differences we detect between races."

When one says "Race Does Not Exist," it suggests something very different from "there certainly are variations in DNA that occurred when the human race multiplied and evolved in geographic isolation." My problem with the "Race Does Not Exist" fad is that it turns something that is largely a definitional issue ("what exactly constitutes a race?" and a political issue ("the concept of race has been used to bad political ends") into what seems like a radical and clear-cut idea.



Subject: Deal with the truth.
Date: Jul 27 2005 03:28:26 PM
Author: Ponyboy.

You can assert that race is not biological all you want--but the fact is that people *can* be sorted into groups that match their self-reported race, and often into their particular ethnicity, based on a relatively small number of polymorphic loci. Also, like I said before, one is virtually guaranteed to have more common polymorphic loci with someone of their own race than someone of another race.
_____________________________

All that polymorphic loci nonsense doesn't flatly prove the scienetific relevance of race in a strictly biological sense. That's just telling us what we already know about evolution.

Fact: There's no biological definition of race, but there certainly are variations in DNA that occurred when the human race multiplied and evolved in geographic isolation. These variations explain the differences we detect between races.

They DO NOT explain the excuse for race as a social, culture and economic construct related to ancestory.

The sources from which you draw your conclusions from straight up ignore all post-Bell Curve data and alot of the shit that Luke is citing is just plainly falsified.

Know what else? You guys are based the whole "intelligence" thing off of genetic material THAT DOESN'T EXIST. "All it takes is for the genes to be found."

WELL NO SHIT.



Subject: none
Date: Jul 27 2005 12:11:10 PM
Author: Luke

Immigrants to America from Africa bring their slave with them.

All of them, including the slave, should be deported immediately. The whole thing is a disgusting, particularly the "consultant" and the "community agencies".

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/234124_slave27.html<
br
/>
A Lynnwood doctor and her medical researcher husband made a Kenyan woman a virtual domestic slave in their home for more than a year, court documents filed by the FBI say.

The Kenyan woman -- terrified in a strange land and threatened with arrest if she didn't comply with the couple's demands -- spent about 13 months locked in the home, worked 15 hours a day and was paid only a small fraction of the $500 per month she had been promised, according to an affidavit by FBI Special Agent Kera Wulbert.






Subject: Not me, boy-eee
Date: Jul 27 2005 12:01:49 PM
Author: Phil O'Dendrum

The earliest anyone in my family background can be found on the North American continent is 1848.
Refugees from the Potato Famine in Ireland, they entered the New World in Canada and didn't migrate to America proper til the 1870's. Yet, because I'm white, I'm automagically expected to pay my "fair share" of reparations. There's racism in it's purest state.

All Hail Goad!

Phil

(NW)



Subject: n/a
Date: Jul 27 2005 10:28:16 AM
Author: dude

"The truth, is that race doesn't biologically exist. It's all about ancestry. How is wrong to judge that white people may be responsible for slavery through ancestory (which opens the door for a slew of "passed down" traits), but right to say that a black person can't grasp complicated maths because of ancestory?"

You can assert that race is not biological all you want--but the fact is that people *can* be sorted into groups that match their self-reported race, and often into their particular ethnicity, based on a relatively small number of polymorphic loci. Also, like I said before, one is virtually guaranteed to have more common polymorphic loci with someone of their own race than someone of another race.

Differences in average intelligence between groups could arise quite easily. All it takes is for genes affecting intelligence being found at different frequencies in different groups.



Subject: Dummy alert!
Date: Jul 27 2005 09:09:03 AM
Author: Ponyboy.

***this "ponyboy" foo' refuses to admit that he sees race existing anywhere, but he keeps hallucinating racists everywhere!***

What didn't you understand about Boo hoo parts 1 and 2? I explained myself fully, if that isn't good enough then it's because of a willingness on your part to ignore the ideas being put forth. You don't want to exchange ideas, your mind is made up.

***why would you call "jeff," who has not said anything racist...a racist?***

What do you mean? I never said Jeff was a bigot. I said he was a racist: Someone who believes in race. If he isn't, then it's a certain kind of grade-school gay that he's on here picking arguments.

***hey, pony, if race doesn't exist, how do you know you're a nonwhite?***

Where the fuck is your reading comprehension? That fact that I know what I'm INDENTIFIED as, doesn't automatically mean that I believe in race. Go back and read what I wrote you stupid fucktard. It was clear.



Subject: phony pony
Date: Jul 27 2005 07:19:23 AM
Author: bell hooks

this "ponyboy" foo' refuses to admit that he sees race existing anywhere, but he keeps hallucinating racists everywhere!

why would you call "jeff," who has not said anything racist...a racist?

hey, pony, if race doesn't exist, how do you know you're a nonwhite?



Subject: Whitey
Date: Jul 27 2005 03:17:26 AM
Author: Karlheinz

Epublius Rex: "PS- I was born in a country that was 90% white and 97% Christian- that's about as homogenous as it gets."

Yeah, those "white" people in Europe were certainly NEVER at war with each other, among racial (and other) lines.

And, of course, all forms of Christianity are "homogenous" - just ask Irishmen.

Don't create a historical vision of "unity" where there isn't one. This very article debunks that myth.

Epublius Rex: "Oh, so now your claiming you and other immigrants were serfs in America?"

If you'd look at the context, I was not implying my ancestors were "serfs" in America (though they probably were in Germany). But any real examination of how America treated immigration in those years would lead you to conclude that "freedom" was rather low on the list. (Look at eugenics studies, the bugaboo of Black anti-racists - they were originally targeted at "inferior" European races and whites living in the Appalachians.)

Epublius Rex: "they should have been repatriated as a provision of freedom"

Well, on one thing, at least, we agree.

Epublius Rex: "We don't put dumb white people on any pedestal either- you're all the same."

Wow - FINALLY we get someone here who actually is "Subject #3".



Subject: Boo hoo 2.
Date: Jul 27 2005 03:25:24 AM
Author: Ponyboy.

The truth, is that race doesn't biologically exist. It's all about ancestry. How is wrong to judge that white people may be responsible for slavery through ancestory (which opens the door for a slew of "passed down" traits), but right to say that a black person can't grasp complicated maths because of ancestory?



Subject: Boo hoo.
Date: Jul 27 2005 03:23:38 AM
Author: Ponyboy.

Jeff. Just because I Indentify the current status quo to be mostly, if not all white doesn't mean that I believe in race, itself. It's not a contradiction. It's fact. You racists cry about "being real", well...I'm being real now, just not in a way to do service to your views. Reality and Truth are two entirely different things in the context of this argument. So when you say "Get real." - that doesn't mean you represent the truth.

The reality is that people have an attachment to the concept of race as a simple indentifier. When race is used as an indentifier and not for the generalization and deindividualization, then there's no problem. But when you start purposely elevating the playing field for only certain players, having it so that certain races can never have a say in the direction of this country (or the world), or that certain races are inherantly weak, then there's going to be a problem.

Frankly unless you have 100% proof. Then you have no business saying shit like that. Generalizations don't work in this case. At what point do you admit that these "exceptions to the rule" are actually proof that the generalization isn't apt? Maybe it's time as a human species to move away from Generalizations. Isn't that possible as well?



Subject: serfs
Date: Jul 27 2005 02:38:39 AM
Author: Epublius Rex

I was born in a home with servants. The blacks just weren't quite there. It's not that we gloated over it, we just understood that back in those days- no one ever had to talk about it. We weren't about trying to assume the "white man's burden" and the rest of that nonsense. Does that mean we thought they were all beneath us intellectually? No, My grandparents used to send the brighter ones to college. But we also understood that those people stood out.

Now here's a real shocker for you. We don't put dumb white people on any pedestal either- you're all the same. There is no such thing as equality and egalitarianism is a Marxist fallacy. And the beauty of globalism and the demise of communism is that now we no longer have to argue it- now we can just move our money any where we want to. And right now, it's leaving America for better, more homogenous, one language countries.

The day of the uppity white man is over with- and with that will go the uppity minority. Just wait when your pensions are bankrupted, then you'll all wish you hadn't killed the goose that laid the golden egg. As if you all were ever capable of running anything, why the very idea is just laughable.



Subject: American serfdom
Date: Jul 27 2005 02:24:23 AM
Author: Epublius Rex

"My ancestors came to America in the 1800's to escape German proto-nationalism. They were poor sons-of-bitches who were not considered "free" under any definition of the term."

Oh, so now your claiming you and other immigrants were serfs in America? Forgive me here, but as I recall, there was no such thing here in America and I believe it had long since been done away with in Western Europe by the time your ancestors left a german principality, unless they were running from the unification..........

at any rate, more nonsense. I'm not like the other people that may show up here. I have familial memory of these things, coming from a family that has towns named after it up and down the East Coast- colonial times and all that.

And why shouldn't whites have privilege in their own countries? Blacks do. And I'm sure you and all the other Marxists here were busy marching for the black supremacists in RHodesia and South Africa back in the 1980's. It's out country, we built it. Blacks picked crops, same as Mexicans in California. That wealth had nothing to do with the rest of the country and in any case, it's not like the country hasn't paid them a 1000 times over for whatever their ancestors may have done. All in all, it has been a net drain upon America- they should have been repatriated as a provision of freedom- as Lincoln wanted.



Subject: assinine assertions
Date: Jul 27 2005 02:05:24 AM
Author: Epublius Rex

PS- I was born in a country that was 90% white and 97% Christian- that's about as homogenous as it gets. Big difference between an Irishman and a Bantu, Charlie. WHich points to another fallacy of that purported PhD- the Bantu where Somalian slaves for generations- no way out for them, at all.

And as far as the poor "indigenous peoples go"- they got their revenge, it's called tobacco. But beyond that, maybe you can explain the existence of European genes in the Mitochondrial DNA of the Iroquois tribes?

I'm here, I know history, it has been my friend for 37 years, lets tango.



Subject: No history here from the left,
Date: Jul 27 2005 01:47:52 AM
Author: Epublius Rex

Just revisionism.

"p.s. America is not "historically homogenous" - it's anything but. The only times America has been "homogenous" has been when it's been bulldozed under the "multiculturalism" of consumer culture, or when it's been united under a common enemy. Most of the rest of the time, it's been Irish vs. Italians vs. English vs. Black vs. Everyone Else."

Umm, sure, that's why it was a bunch of Englishmen who founded the nation- ever read the Federalist Papers? Thought not.

As for the marxist claiming to be a history PHD, BS- there was no substantial difference between slavery in the Americas and slavery in the old world. Perhaps, since you claim it was so, you can explain the wide spread slave revolts in the Roman Empire? Or perhaps you can explain the sharia law that demanded that all black slaves entering the Caliphate be neutered before entry? Or perhaps you can explain the current savagery in the Sudan?

The only way out of slavery in Africa was A) Manumission (an idea that took hold first in Rome where horses were about 8 times more valuable then slaves) b) death c) a Christian slave converting Islam.

No other way out. And let us discuss the millions of Europeans hauled off to slavery in Africa- I'd say the North Atlantic trade was nothing more then "turn about"- having been fair play.



Subject: One small point
Date: Jul 27 2005 01:37:58 AM
Author: Karlheinz

Also: "before 1965 and dating from 1795 that no one other then free white men were allowed into America?"

My ancestors came to America in the 1800's to escape German proto-nationalism. They were poor sons-of-bitches who were not considered "free" under any definition of the term.

In fact, most immigrants to the US were not considered "free." They were usually not even considered "white" for a couple of generations at least.

Are you TRYING to give ammo to the "whites are privileged" crowd?



Subject: True Believers pt. 2
Date: Jul 27 2005 01:37:25 AM
Author: Karlheinz

The real threat is when people (of any group, racial or not) advance their own collective agenda against concepts like law & order, rationality, individual responsibility, or meritocracy. One may think that only leftists have been responsible for this, but in reality, these concepts have been under attack from ALL political groups.

p.p.s. The "subsidy farming" thing was sarcastic.



Subject: True believers
Date: Jul 27 2005 01:36:59 AM
Author: Karlheinz

Epublius Rex: "Don't waste your time arguing with "true believers"- they are imbued not with logic and reason"

I've come to this same conclusion, arguing both with Luke and YAB. (Really, I think they should just form a circle-jerk before dividing the country up between "blacks" and "whites".)

The difference between them? YAB admitted he was making "emotional arguments," while Luke (for some reason) wants to prove that his ideas are grounded in science - even though, obviously, he's just picking and choosing whichever study advances his agenda.

(And to Bobby: If you feel that way, I can't really argue. Just don't pretend your ideas are based on science or objectivity, and we'll get along great.)

p.s. America is not "historically homogenous" - it's anything but. The only times America has been "homogenous" has been when it's been bulldozed under the "multiculturalism" of consumer culture, or when it's been united under a common enemy. Most of the rest of the time, it's been Irish vs. Italians vs. English vs. Black vs. Everyone Else.



Subject: all
Date: Jul 27 2005 12:35:33 AM
Author: Epublius Rex

Don't waste your time arguing with "true believers"- they are imbued not with logic and reason, but with the religion of the social-communist agenda, of which multiculturalism is but one of it's many manifestations- kinda like believing in the holy trinity.



Subject: AB
Date: Jul 27 2005 12:34:57 AM
Author: Epublius Rex

As for the obviously ill educated "army brat"- go to a real school, study real history. Do you really think that when America is no longer predominantly white that it will still be the land of plenty that you currently enjoy? If you do, you are pure "cannon fodder". It is/was the country it has been because of it's historically homogenous culture. When that culture is gone, it will be nothing more then another 3rd world totalitarian cesspool, just like the countries that all of these immigrants hail from for the last 40 years.

You did know, Brat, that before 1965 and dating from 1795 that no one other then free white men were allowed into America? The only exception was contained in the original Constitution, wherein it stated that until 1826 black slaves could be brought in, thereafter, it was illegal.

Funny things is, you morons, is that those slave runners and their customers used the same arguments that you all are using now to bring in the cheap labor- especially your hero, Jorge Bush.


"Race is a social construct", yeah, and your mother shits children.



Subject: KH and his ilk
Date: Jul 26 2005 08:58:32 PM
Author: Epublius Rex

"AK: "do you realize how much we would have to pay for our food if harvesting it required that farmers pay workers minimum wage?"

Oh, for those halcyon days of subsidy farming."

Umm, my family owns the largest and oldest working farm in Minnesota and we never used illegal labor to harvest anything. Being Americans, we understand the superiority of machinery over the drudgery of human labor. Hence, it was always the most modern farm in America. No subsidies here.

"Luke waxed poetic on the Minuteman project, where vigilante groups patrol our Southern borders to beat up those dirty wetbacks that are trying to take white mens' jobs."


WHat a load of bullshit, the minute I read that, I knew you were a cheap liar with an agenda. Not one Minuteman touched a hair on one illegal alien entering this country.

As for the racist bigot (ponyboy) who can hardly wait to see "white get his", I have news for you, not once in the history of the Western world over the last 500 years has a non-white army defeated a white army of similar size and proportion. Not only that, but even under extremely adverse conditions they win 99.999% of the time- there being only two instances that I can think of where they did not.



Subject: none
Date: Jul 27 2005 12:11:08 AM
Author: Luke TD

Dear Crab:

At a previous juncture on this forum, I was mildly berated for using the term "rabid Zionist" to describe rabid Zionists.

Unsurprisingly, your comments validate my choice of words.

Perhaps we can get together and debate some of the finer points of Talmudic law? Maybe one of the numerous passages which describe non-jews in viciously derogatory terms?

Let's meet on the sidewalk outside of your synagogue.

I'll be sure to wear one of my new t-shirts.

I trust you'll be suitably impressed.



Subject: none
Date: Jul 26 2005 11:45:26 PM
Author: Luke TD

From a good review of a great book:

http://www.amren.com/store/salterreview.htm

Richard Lewontin famously pointed out that if the total genetic variation of humans is given a figure of 100, 85 to 90 percent of that variation is found within population groups, and only 10 to 15 percent are distinct variations not shared by all groups.

This only highlights the importance of the 10 to 15 percent. We share 90 percent of our genes with mice, but there is more genetic variation within a single human ethny than the variations that separate us from mice. Yet all humans are obviously more closely related to each other than to mice—they are identical twins by comparison. The small genetic differences are where the important differences lie, and it is in the area of these small differences that all Mbuti are practically identical twins by comparison with Aborigines.

Loyalty to an ethny is the genetic equivalent of loyalty to one’s family. Therefore, if immigration replaces parts of a native ethny with aliens, for the natives who remain, this genetic shift means replacement of kinfolk with strangers. Just how drastic the effect can be depends on how genetically distant the newcomers are.




Subject: crab
Date: Jul 26 2005 11:26:52 PM
Author: Luke the Drifter

Hiya, crab-

I would love to buy the full set of those t-shirts.

Do you know where I can purchase them?

If not, let me suggest that you start manufacturing them, because I am sure that they'd be a moneymaker.

By the way, are you one of "the Chosen" (TM)? To judge from your vocabulary and attitude, I suspect that you are.



Subject: Luke the shit-for-brains
Date: Jul 26 2005 11:22:46 PM
Author: Crab

Luke the drifter is a fuck-face.

Buy the t-shirt you chicken shit cunt.



Subject: chalkgod
Date: Jul 26 2005 08:40:17 PM
Author: Anti-Semitic Steve

I like your liberal use of the word "honestly".



Subject: wow
Date: Jul 26 2005 07:33:31 PM
Author: chalkgod

jim goad is still alive? i'm honestly surprised.

figured he would have choked on bile and saltines by now.



Subject: the redneck manifesto
Date: Jul 26 2005 06:23:39 PM
Author: another race/realist

read the book,stupid



Subject: none
Date: Jul 26 2005 06:01:35 PM
Author: Luke TD

In Lexington, Ky., community leaders since February have hosted six community meetings on the topic of reparations. At a final meeting last Tuesday, the group concluded that blacks and whites remain widely divided over the issue and that a statewide education program was needed.

In Fredericksburg, Va., there are plans to build a $200 million slave museum featuring a life-size replica of a slave ship.

In Abbeville, S.C., this month, church leaders held a reconciliation service at which whites confessed the sins of ancestors who in 1916 lynched Eugene Crawford and stole his 427-acre farm. Blacks then offered them forgiveness.

The private sector is also involved. From Philadelphia to Chicago to Berkeley, Calif., city leaders passed laws requiring companies doing business with the local government to first determine whether their corporate predecessors perpetuated slavery.

In response to those laws, corporations have had to admit that they have ties to firms that financed the purchase of slaves, held slaves as collateral for loans and insured white owners against the slaves' escape. In some cases, they have offered to pay millions of dollars to blacks.

Wachovia Corp., the banking giant based in Charlotte, N.C., in June admitted that two of its predecessor companies had been involved in the slave trade, including the Georgia Railroad and Banking Co., which used 529 slaves to build railroads. The company sa



Subject: reparations
Date: Jul 26 2005 06:00:59 PM
Author: Luke

A recent article sympathetic to the idea of reparations, and quoting a black leader as saying they are "inevitable":

http://www.ajc.com/news/content/news/stories/0705/26natr
eparations.html />
The recent outpouring of recognition has given new hope to activists in the African-American community who have been pushing for years to persuade the federal government to pay reparations — payment to blacks by the federal government to compensate them for the adverse affects of slavery that many say continue to reverberate today.

"Reparations are inevitable," said Raymond Winbush, a professor at Morgan State University in Baltimore and editor of a book on reparations. "This is the beginning of it."

Black and white lawmakers in Washington insist there is no increased interest in Congress for reparations. But they continue to find new ways to acknowledge the horrors of slavery.

A bipartisan commission is investigating how slaves were used to build the U.S. Capitol about 200 years ago, with an eye toward erecting a memorial somewhere on the Capitol grounds.

With the approval of President Bush and a $2 million appropriation, planning for an African-American museum on or near the National Mall also is under way.

Elsewhere in the nation, local officials are far ahead of the federal government.




Subject: none
Date: Jul 26 2005 02:51:35 PM
Author: Luke

Dude, I completely agree that PBS is not a trustworthy source of biological or sociological information. PBS has a clear and consistent agenda: multicultural socialistic egalitarian idealism.

The three-part Jared Diamond series was, to my mind, only the most recent example of their typical fare.

Another example was the horrific series "Wonders of the African World", intended to showcase the amazing (and primarily imaginary) accomplishments of native Africans. The "star" of the series was that affirmative-action ivy-league huckster, Henry Louis Gates Jr.



Subject: none
Date: Jul 26 2005 02:45:55 PM
Author: Luke

Amazing enough that it was worth repeating.



Subject: none
Date: Jul 26 2005 02:44:16 PM
Author: Luke

Good points, Logik. Your point about stereotypes is right on the money.

I was amazed to read this:

http://www.gnxp.com/MT2/archives/004046.html

There are larger genetic differences between a West African, a Northwest European, and an Northeast Asian, then there is between two separate species, a wolf and a coyote, or between a Shih Tzu and a German Shepherd.

Using Sewall Wright’s genetic distance statistic, FST, the value of differentiation for human races is typically 12-15%, Wright suggested this figure is on the high to moderate end of genetic differentiation among other animal races. This figure, by the way, clumps together a number of low differentiation populations and drags the number down; if we compare just the two largest sub-divisions of the human species – Africans and non-Africans - we get a number of 25-30%, which is huge. So at the very least we can say the human species has two enormously genetically differentiated races compared with the rest of the animal world

To quote James Serpell’s The Domestic Dog:

”to keep things in perspective, it should be pointed out that there is less mtDNA difference between dogs, wolves, and coyotes, than there is between ethnic groups of human beings.” (pp. 32-33)





Subject: Face the Facts
Date: Jul 26 2005 02:16:05 PM
Author: Logik

Why can't we just face the facts? Separation of the races works. For those pushing for reparations, we should enthusiastically provide it to them in the form of relocation packages to Africa (despite the fact that non of them are from there). I'm white. I live in a Lily white neighborhood and I wish to keep it that way. I pay good money for everything in my neighborhood with the idea that the premium insulates me from the minority invasion. I'm not so naive as to think that all blacks are thugs and all spanish thieves, (insert additional stereotypes here), but the stereotypes exist for a reason and I choose not to surround myself with it. I have the balls to say so and to act on my own determination. I know that there are "good ones", but would I sacrifice them to rid my schools and neighborhood of all of the "bad ones"? Hell yes. That's just the way it is. Any self-respecting white male that says otherwise is either naive or full-of-shit. The best thing the minorities can do is try to make their own neoghborhoods as good as mine so that they can thumb their nose at me and discriminate against my kids. I am completely fine with that. But alas, we know better than to think that these people will actually help themselves. After all, how could they survice without affirmative action?



Subject: Academia Schmacademia
Date: Jul 26 2005 12:54:12 PM
Author: Bobby

Why are you guys talking about genetic patterns and DNA and blah blah blah. Race exists. We all know it. All this ivory tower academic talk is so out of touch with the real world. It's like when mathematicians prove you don't exist (compared to the universe we are infinitely small and infinitely small is the definition of zero) but you're like - no actually. I do exist.
Just ask a blind person if he thinks there's a difference between blacks and whties. He'll say fuck yeah.



Subject: wanker
Date: Jul 26 2005 12:51:55 PM
Author: Smitty

Vice, why did you feel the need to write this article? You clowns. How does Kele from Bloc Party feel about this piece?



Subject: none
Date: Jul 26 2005 10:59:46 AM
Author: Luke

Dude: I think Karlheinz is right that the ~10 to 15% figure (roughly) applies to functional genes; indeed, the F_st for functional genes actually might be lower than for junk ones.

Luke: That sounds reasonable, but is it actually what KH said?

KH: Around eighty to ninety percent of human genetic variation was within ethnic populations, five to ten percent was among ethnic populations within the major racial groups, and only about five to ten percent was among the major racial groups."



Subject: FUCK THE DJ
Date: Jul 26 2005 10:51:38 AM
Author: nopster

Schön zynisch-nihilistischer Text, der die Sache aber nur teilweise trifft. Man hätte die Sache eher vom Pop-Startum aufziehen bzw. niedermachen sollen. 'Ey wat? Väth kommt? Komm isch a!' Anders funktioniert es nicht: Die Jungs und Mädels haben sich ein über die Jahre funktionierendes Image aufgebaut. Kommt Väth - kommt Papa Techno! Kommt Novy - kommt Bauer Bummbumm! Usw. usf. Eine ganze Medienkultur (Zeitschriften, Websites, TV-Sendung) lebt von der 'Kunst' des Auflegens. Ich glaube, es ist wie bei vielen anderen Bereichen: Wer die Ausdauer, Connections und Power hat, wird über kurz oder lang wohl rocken. Und das nicht nur on the decks...
mfg
nopster



Subject: Playing the Race Cards
Date: Jul 26 2005 10:41:03 AM
Author: Jeff

Did I mention that I'm developing a fun new family friendly ("Keep it in the Family", tm.) board game involving my race cards? I call it "Playing the Race Cards".

Advance 2 steps forward by implicitly acknowledging race, and 1 step back when you accuse another person of inventing the idea of race to reinforce some kind of belief or racial status quo.

Advance three steps back when you accomplish both feats in the same sentence.

Send $19.95 to a P.O. box in Colorado Springs, to be disclosed to individuals who undergo rigorous pseudo-scientific racial screenings.



Subject: Awesome?
Date: Jul 26 2005 09:09:33 AM
Author: Ponyboy.

Jeff,

I never said that you shouldn't bother. I said that it wasn't really nessacary. And trust me, I'm far from caring if you like me or not. No one cares, not even your mom. :(

Awwww, poor kid. I hope you are r-aped by rabid lab-mice with barbed cocks growing out of their backs. And that's not a punishment. I know you'll like it and I only wish the best for you in the future, Jeff. Truly. I mean that.



Subject: junk vs. functional genes
Date: Jul 26 2005 08:34:21 AM
Author: dude

Luke, I think Karlheinz is right that the ~10 to 15% figure (roughly) applies to functional genes; indeed, the F_st for functional genes actually might be lower than for junk ones.

It is clear that variation in intelligence and other "important" traits is substantially smaller than variation in traits related to appearance, though this certainly does not imply there is zero variation between groups as many would like to believe. For example, roughly 60% of the variation in skin color is between races, and I would expect similar figures for other traits that relate to appearance, but in terms of measured intelligence (in the U.S.), the figure for variation between races is about 10 to 15 percent. Remember, though, that 10% of variation is far from trivial on a group level--for example, if group A had an average IQ 90, standard deviation 15, and B has an average of 100, s.d. 15, there would be roughly 10% of variation in measured intelligence between the two groups.



Subject: damn 1500 character limit
Date: Jul 26 2005 08:33:54 AM
Author: dude

The end of my last post is "...funded in part by the Ford Foundation and produced by the hard left group California Newsreel."



Subject: none
Date: Jul 26 2005 08:32:03 AM
Author: dude

Karlheinz, you obviously don't get it. I usually don't like being a complete asshole on the 'net (as I have criticized others for it), but I just have to cut through the crap. The 10/15% of variation numbers only apply to single polymorphisms, *not* the genome as a whole. Even 10% of variation between two groups would imply that a random member of the 'outgroup' shares only about 82% as many DNA polymorphisms, compared to a random member of their ingroup.

"The chance that the genetic distance between a European and a sub-Saharan African is going to be less than the genetic distance between two Europeans is effectively zero, not one-third . . . I faked up two gene frequency data sets such that their Fst was 0.15 I use random sampling to create two individuals from distribution A and one from distribution B: then I calculate the A1-A2 genetic distance and the A1-B1 genetic distance. If I look at 10 loci, A1 is closer to B1 than to A2 about 30% of the time. If I use 100 loci, A1 is closer to B1 about 1.9% of the time. If I use 1000 loci, A1 is never closer to B1 than A2 in 20,000 runs." [note that there are a few million polymorphic loci in the human genome]

http://www.gnxp.com/MT2/archives/004046.html

BTW, I wouldn't consider the PBS race series at all credible just based on the source(indeed I think it borders on criminal that taxpayer dollars went to fund it), as it was funded in part by the Ford Foundation and produc



Subject: none
Date: Jul 26 2005 06:58:14 AM
Author: Luke

Luke: KH wants to bury his head in the sand and pretend that Bantus are more similar to Swedes than they are to each other.

KH: Notice I never ONCE said "more similar."

KH: Notice I was only talking about genetics, not other aspects of race or culture.

- To clarify the obvious, so was I. Let me re-phrase: KH wants to bury his head in the sand and pretend that genetically, Bantus are no different than Swedes because both groups share most of their genes in common.

Following your logic, there is no difference between humans and chimpanzees:

Human and Chimpanzee Functional DNA Shows They Are More Similar To Each Other Than Either Is To Other Apes

http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:5t7pfUqvOGcJ:www.uchi
cago.edu/aff/mwc-amacad/biocomplexity/conference_papers/good
man.pdf+humans+chimpanzees+dna+common&hl=en />

Derek E. Wildman1, Lawrence I. Grossman1, and Morris Goodman2.1Center for Molecular Medicine & Genetics, Wayne State University School of Medicine,540 E. Canfield Ave. Detroit, MI 48201 and,2Dept. of Anatomy and Cell Biology, Wayne State University School of Medicine, 550 E.Canfield Ave. Detroit, MI 48201.Correspondence to Morris Goodman. Email mgoodwayne@aol.com.
--------------------------------------------------------
------------------------ /> Page 2
Wildman et al. Genomics in Humans & Chimpanzees2Intro



Subject: N/A
Date: Jul 26 2005 06:37:36 AM
Author: Jeff

Ponyboy: I just read your response to my first address to you this morning. "You didn't even have to bother writing all that"?! But I LIKE addressing people who don't take me particularly seriously, through the internet. And I'll keep posting here when I feel like it, until Y.A.B. comes back and browbeats me into going away (I love you, Y.A.B.! I think I'm starting to understand your unique idiot savant genius).

By the way, Ponyboy, way to show how off-target I was in assuming that you have difficulty distinguishing between individuals, by holding other people's words against me (I'm sure it would be premature and brash of me to assume that your beliefs about race, or the nonexistence thereof, are rooted in your cognitive insanity regarding identity). You really showed me. Shunned me, that is.

Actually, I don't think you have a cognitive difficulty regarding distinctions between individuals, I just think you're ethically dishonest. Not as regards your honesty about your opinion that ideas that you consider anti-progressive should be destroyed, however. I appreciate your honesty in that regard. Thanks for telling me where you stand. In that spirit of honesty, I'm going to come clean with you: I don't like you. Boy it feels good to get that off my chest.

"Filled with emotional garbage..."!? Takes a landfill to know one, I guess.



Subject: RE: Ponyboy subject: 2, pt. 1
Date: Jul 26 2005 04:47:35 AM
Author: Jeff

Ponyboy said "So yes. I think any belief system that rejects change and progress should be routed and destroyed." Hmmm.

I wasn't attempting to villify you, I just wanted to make fun of you. A little shunning perhaps. A little moderate, low-level shunning. As for my hypocrisy in emphasizing the weight of your words, because, if I wasn't kept in check by folks like yourself, and my own stupidity, I would make daily decisions to impose my dumb beliefs on everyone by action and... wait, why am I giving your insulting assumptions concerning me respect by responding to them again? Sorry. It's late (early?), and I'm tired.

Look: I, Myself, personally, am not concerned with proving a genetic basis of race, or with imposing the idea of race on the world. And, as hard as this might be to believe, I don't care about preserving any white status quo. When you use a phrase like "white status quo", you are implicitly acknowledging the idea that different races exist. Whether this is a faulty idea imposed on the world by racists or not, it would seem that most people, including yourself, reinforce the idea of racial distinction in their use of language. I hate to be the guy squatting on a chair in a closet with a bucket on his head here, but it seems self evident to me.

To be continued.






Subject: More DNA junk
Date: Jul 26 2005 02:50:24 AM
Author: Karlheinz

Luke: the intra-race variation he speaks of is primarily composed of so-called "junk genes".

No. The difference is between ALL genes that differentiate humans from other species. Every single source I've been able to find says this.

In any case - the genes you're talking about are (thus far) the only genes that have been shown to correspond to human populations to any degree whatsoever. (Yet you weren't afraid to cite this when it suited your purpose.)

If they're just "junk genes," what does that say to you?

Luke: KH wants to bury his head in the sand and pretend that Bantus are more similar to Swedes than they are to each other.

Notice I never ONCE said "more similar."

Notice I was only talking about genetics, not other aspects of race or culture.

How're those straw-men coming, punk?

Guess you need them.



Subject: n/a
Date: Jul 26 2005 03:02:48 AM
Author: Ponyboy.

Jeff,

You didn't even have to bother writing all that. Anyone who asks such banal questions like "1) Are you proud of your heritage?" - "2) What is your heritage? Are you a mulatto/quadroon (ie of mixed-race ancestry)?" and "do you believe ALL people shouldn't be racists" -Are just trolling so that they can rail off on another rejoineder filled with emotional garbage that they *insist* is valid because of small "facts".

These are dumb questions from people with dumb opinions. Who accuse my belief of being spiritual when it is their belief that is stagnant and is rooted very little in the overall genetic reality of the situation. (As Karlhienz pointed out.)



Subject: Ponyboy 1
Date: Jul 26 2005 02:42:45 AM
Author: Jeff

O.K., Ponyboy: I'm going to assume that some parts of your posts "Subject: 1 & Subject: 2" are a response to my questions in "curious Jeff". It's hard to tell which parts are addressed to me, what with your seeming difficulty in distinguishing between individuals. But the first sentences in both posts seem like responses to my questions, so I'll assume as much unless you tell me otherwise. No horse jokes this time. This is my response to "1":

Ponyboy said: "I think all racism should come to a halt regardless of race". Good. I'd hate to think that your focus is mostly on white racists, because according to what would seem to me to be your definition of racism, that would be racist.

Most of the rest of that post seems like a response to bell hooks (I hope so, anyway, because if the rest of that post is addressed directly to me, then you're pulling assumptions out of your ass to an embarrassing and insulting degree), so I'll resist the urge to respond to your brash assumptions, even though I'm "chomping at the bit", as it were. I'll go into more depth in my response to "2".












Subject: none
Date: Jul 26 2005 02:22:15 AM
Author: Luke

What KH ignores is the fact that the intra-race variation he speaks of is primarily composed of so-called "junk genes".

http://www.vdare.com/sailer/darwinphobia1.htm

Lots of information available to substantiate this.

But KH wants to bury his head in the sand and pretend that Bantus are more similar to Swedes than they are to each other.

The idea is so self-evidently absurd that it's amazing that its adherants, like KH, can even tie their own shoes in the morning.




Subject: to Dude
Date: Jul 26 2005 12:42:33 AM
Author: Karlheinz

Dude: "Do you deny that two people of different races are almost guaranteed to be more genetically different than two people of the same race?"

I'll go ahead and deny that.

"[M]ost variation is within, rather than between, races. On average, any local population contains 85% of all human genetic variation, and any continent contains 94%. [...] Two random Swedes, for example, are likely to be as different as a Swede and a Senegalese."

http://www.pbs.org/race/000_About/002_04_a-godeeper.htm

"[A]round eighty to ninety percent of human genetic variation was within ethnic populations, five to ten percent was among ethnic populations within the major racial groups, and only about five to ten percent was among the major racial groups. In other words, 'if everybody on earth became extinct except for the Kikiyu of East Africa, about eighty-five percent of all human variation would still be present in the reconstituted species'."

http://www.learner.org/channel/courses/biology/textbook/
humev/humev_4.html


I could probably dredge up more, but I think you get the picture.

I'm not going to discuss your other viewpoints.



Subject: none
Date: Jul 26 2005 01:00:47 AM
Author: Luke

I think he should sell her into sex slavery, don't you?

It's more than I'd offer for her.

http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-13394619,00.
html



Subject: Diamond
Date: Jul 26 2005 12:56:25 AM
Author: Luke the Drifter

I just watched the third and final segment of Diamonds "Guns Germs and Steel" on PBS.

Diamond is a vile, evil propagandist who deserves all the opprobrium wrongfully heaped on Goebbles.

He is a nefarious, scheming prevaricator who passionately hates whites.

He is a fake and a fraud.

His book is garbage.



Subject: none
Date: Jul 25 2005 11:56:37 PM
Author: Luke

Excellent points, dude.

My endorsement doesn't imply your endorsement.

I also want a t-shirt that says:

Said the Jews: "Let His blood be on our heads and the heads of our children." (Matthew 27:24)



Subject: none
Date: Jul 25 2005 11:44:59 PM
Author: dude

Oh, and speaking of multi-culti hell, let's not forget the high crime rates caused by soft-on-crime policies and the importation of groups that tend to commit more crime.



Subject: none
Date: Jul 25 2005 11:35:32 PM
Author: dude

Also, I and "bell hooks" (I am pretty sure) don't claim that multiculturalist advocates are claiming that they will create a utopia. My claim is that multiculturalism--in the form of loose/open borders, racial preferences, and a constant emphasis on how "oppressed" minorities are and how evil whites are-- will ultimately result in outright disaster. That is, unless one considers an overpopulated nation full of East L.A.'s, with 60 and 70 percent tax rates on professionals, and authoritarian "anti-racist" laws A-OK.



Subject: none
Date: Jul 25 2005 11:11:15 PM
Author: dude

First of all, Ponyboy, you didn't even answer my point. Do you deny that two people of different races are almost guaranteed to be more genetically different than two people of the same race?

Not only is there substantial human variation (both racial and individual), some of the greatest variation between races is between sub-Saharan Africans and all other groups:

"Using Sewall Wright’s genetic distance statistic, FST, the value of differentiation for human races is typically 12-15%, Wright suggested this figure is on the high to moderate end of genetic differentiation among other animal races. This figure, by the way, clumps together a number of low differentiation populations and drags the number down; if we compare just the two largest sub-divisions of the human species – Africans and non-Africans - we get a number of 25-30%, which is huge. So at the very least we can say the human species has two enormously genetically differentiated races compared with the rest of the animal world."

http://www.gnxp.com/MT2/archives/004046.html



Subject: Fuck-Face
Date: Jul 25 2005 08:41:29 PM
Author: Chad

Luke,

How about you get a t-shirt that says:

I'm a stupid fucking cunt-face.
Everytime I go to the movies or Las Vegas half of the money goes to Israel.

You are too dumb to play.



Subject: t-shirts
Date: Jul 25 2005 08:18:03 PM
Author: Luke

I want a fourth t-shirt that says:

Say "NO" to a Jewish tax on non-jews:
Boycott "Kosher" foods



Subject: none
Date: Jul 25 2005 08:13:47 PM
Author: Luke the Drifter

I want a third t-shirt that says this:

BOYCOTT ISRAEL
A Racist, Supremacist, Apartheid Theocracy



Subject: Bum Rush
Date: Jul 25 2005 05:36:47 PM
Author: Chad

Ok cunt-face, I guess you give good enough reason's on why you don't like Rush Limbaugh. But you still admit to being a sneaky little fuck-face with judicial pretentions. You niggars are all the same - you all want to become Dr. Huxtable's wife (so that Bill Cosby will butt-fuck you) and lock away more of your kind behind bars.



Subject: none
Date: Jul 25 2005 05:29:30 PM
Author: Luke

Chad suggests:
Let's get you on the radio with Rush Limbaugh

-I don't really care for Rush Limbaugh for the following reasons:
1) He's a willing and slavish tool of the Zionists.
2) He doesn't take a strong stance against immigration.
3) He doesn't care about the environment.
4) He supports the "War in Error".
5) He supports our Traitor in Chief.



Subject: none
Date: Jul 25 2005 05:24:36 PM
Author: Luke TD

I want another t-shirt that says:

Remember Rachel Corrie
1979-2003
Murdered by Zionists



Subject: none
Date: Jul 25 2005 05:20:59 PM
Author: Luke

Ponyboy_ I'm just curious about a couple things:
1) Are you proud of your heritage?
2) What is your heritage? Are you a mulatto/quadroon (ie of mixed-race ancestry)?



Subject: none
Date: Jul 25 2005 05:13:52 PM
Author: Luke the Drifter

Chad asks:
Don't be a chicken fuck-face, why don't you get involved in a public debate? One where you can't hide in your room.

-Nah, I think I'll bide my time, and work my way up the ladder, (voicing my perspective only anonymously), until I get appointed or elected to be a judge.

Then I'll continue to bide my time, and continue to work my way up, until I get appointed to a federal judgeship.

THEN I'll let ya have it with both barrels.



Subject: DUNCE.
Date: Jul 25 2005 04:47:26 PM
Author: Ponyboy.

"GET THE FUCK OUT OF HERE, WHITE BOY!"

That would be apt, if I was white. But I'm not, so your argument here is completely dehinged. I'm a non-white who believes race doesn't exist. Write it down, go out and share it with your friends.



Subject: Hit in the mouth w. a dumb brick.
Date: Jul 25 2005 04:50:07 PM
Author: Ponyboy.

you talk about your supposed grasp of "culture," yet you ignore the fact that most cultures—racial or otherwise—are founded on the idea of their own supremacy.
_______________________________

That's irrelevant. Race has always been grounded in what people see and their perception of what is different, self-preservation and supremacy go hand-in-hand. ---That still doesn't prove race is as a genetic fact.--- Where's your proof of these "racial cultures" being steaped in supremacy? Do you have any "race maniphestos" handy? If so, do share.

I also, don't believe that multiculturalism is going to create some utopia. It's a common trick for fundamentalist and those to don't like change to throw this curve ball at you. In order to make you look like you're not connected to "reality". The fact is they are the ones who are delusional if they believe that we can continue on using the same ideals as those before us.

Race, itself isn't rooted in any actual facts. Just a bunch of ideals that have gotten way out of hand. It all stems from generalization and oversimplification of people and cultures. It's a spirtual belief and those who believe in it, usually use the same arguement Christians use to explain their belief. "God/Race, is self evident. Look around, how can you say it/he doesn't exist?"



Subject: Luke the Fuck-Head
Date: Jul 25 2005 04:12:47 PM
Author: Chad

Let's get you on the radio with Rush Limbaugh, you two obviously have a lot in common.

Don't be a chicken fuck-face, why don't you get involved in a public debate? One where you can't hide in your room.



Subject: Luke the Fuck-Face
Date: Jul 25 2005 04:09:01 PM
Author: Chad

Dear Luke the Nig-Nog,

You lose. Karlheinz wins.

Now shut the fuck-up, you stupid cunting fuck-wit!!



Subject: none
Date: Jul 25 2005 01:43:53 PM
Author: Luke the Drifter

Diamond admits his motives and objectives:

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/1132

"Historians' failure to explain history's broadest pattern [ie the success of Eurasians, and the comparative failure of blacks] leaves us with a huge moral gap. In the absence of convincing explanations, many (most?) people resort, consciously or unconsciously, to racist assumptions: the conquerors supposedly had superior IQ or culture. That prevalence of racist theories, as loathsome as they are unsupported, is the strongest reason for studying the long-term factors behind human history."

In other words, the guy has an agenda, and can't be bothered with the facts. He is on a mission to invent another explanation for this unacceptable state of events.



Subject: diamond
Date: Jul 25 2005 01:36:23 PM
Author: Luke TD

Is current media darling Jared Diamond, (author of Guns Germs and Steel), a closet racist?

You be the judge:

http://www.gnxp.com/MT2/archives/003206.html

Nature. 1986 Apr 10-16; 320(6062):488-9.
Ethnic differences: Variation in human testis size
by Jared M. Diamond

THE potential harvest from studies of human testis size, a subject that has received little systematic investigation, is indicated in a paper by R. V. Short (ref. 1), who documents variations between ethnic groups which could be correlated with the incidence of dizygotic twins and breast cancer.

Although measurements of testis size by orchidometry in living subjects are difficult to standardize, they suggest smaller testes in Japanese and Korean men than in Caucasians.

SEE LINK FOR REST OF ARTICLE



Subject: none
Date: Jul 25 2005 12:51:42 PM
Author: Luke

Anyone know where I can get a t-shirt that says:

"I visited Auswchitz, and all I got was a bar of soap!"

I want to wear it next Saturday while standing outside my local synagogue. A friend will park nearby to videotape the ensuing fun.



Subject: none
Date: Jul 25 2005 12:35:57 PM
Author: Luke the Drifter

ponyboy:
"It's all a little too: "I'm still mad that blacks beat me up in high school/jail/on the way home." for me or for anyone with a brain to take seriously."

-Seems like an implicit admission which undermines your broader point. You acknowledge the accuracy of the stereotype that blacks are violent, and that whites are often the targets of their violence.

This being the case, how can you blame whites if they are concerned about blacks?

On the other hand, how many blacks are afraid to go to school/walk home because they might get beaten up by whites? Whatever you claim, it's safe to say the the number is far smaller than the reverse.

Note that stereotypes are widely accepted because they are true. Stereotypes serve as shorthand statistical analysis. The academic war against the use of stereotypes is a war against common sense.



Subject: li'l white pony
Date: Jul 25 2005 10:55:30 AM
Author: bell hooks

some day, it it hasn't already happened multiple times, ponyboy will approach a group of his new multicultural friends acting as if he understands them, and they say,

GET THE FUCK OUT OF HERE, WHITE BOY!

keep fightin', quixotic soldier. slay those windmills!

guess what, bright little pony? just because you don't think you're "a part of the problem" doesn't mean *they* won't.

many of them can't tell us apart.



Subject: you obviously don't notice much
Date: Jul 25 2005 10:37:56 AM
Author: bell hooks

ponyboy:
"I notice those who support the idea of race (as it applies to whites and blacks) also usually attempt to put blacks in a negative light."

right.

like the nation of islam.

or the brown berets.

or the chinese and their "middle kingdom."

everyone believes in race except a handful of suicidal white people.



Subject: brains
Date: Jul 25 2005 10:32:57 AM
Author: bell hooks

ponyboy:
"People who know and frequental ...."

duh!



Subject: you can lead a pony to water...
Date: Jul 25 2005 10:32:12 AM
Author: bell hooks

ponyboy:
"It's all a little too: "I'm still mad that blacks beat me up in high school/jail/on the way home." for me or for anyone with a brain to take seriously."

oh, for fuck's sake, you make the most ridiculous low-blow stereotypical generalizations about anyone who disagrees with you, and then you're thick enough to talk about "brains" and being "taken seriously."

all my problems in life have been with white people.

you talk about your supposed grasp of "culture," yet you ignore the fact that most cultures—racial or otherwise—are founded on the idea of their own supremacy. whites aren't the only ones who do this, mr. dimbulb. when you keep talking about this great enlightened modern multicultural world that's supposed to be coming, you always allude to how you're on the "moral" side, etc., proving that you're a supremacist, too.

if it's a bigoted stereotype to say that most blacks are, by necessity, too grounded in the real world to believe some well-wishing white theorist's nonsensical "race is just an idea" blather, then let it go on record as a stereotype.

there are exceptions to every rule. there are also patterns.

you have nothing to support you but some flimsy spiritual beliefs. so don't talk about brains until you get some.



Subject: Obviously there's no rule.
Date: Jul 25 2005 08:25:06 AM
Author: Ponyboy.

Racists usually lack a complete understanding of the subject. They are ignorant of the complexities of culture, itself. And They are completely unaware of the effort that has gone into you making sure that you understand that dark skin is so vastly different and alien. Your argument loses because while I can find some blacks that can do trig and don't smoke weed, you'll find some that play b-ball and blames whites for everything.

Then you'll claim how this is a victory for you because that's the stereotype. As a label, a generalization. Suddenly people who don't fit with the generalization become "exceptions to the rule." What rule, guys?



Subject: It's actually really sad. 1
Date: Jul 25 2005 08:23:02 AM
Author: Ponyboy.

I notice those who support the idea of race (as it applies to whites and blacks) also usually attempt to put blacks in a negative light. It's all a little too: "I'm still mad that blacks beat me up in high school/jail/on the way home." for me or for anyone with a brain to take seriously.

They usually have all the brown skin races score lower that the lighter skinned. Talk about how no one is equal and then they think it's smart or pointed to turn equality around on those who believe in it. Claiming it is as fabricated of a concept as race.

It's a another sad tactic because with own your belief in race, one can already infer that you don't believe in equality. For people like you, they are exactly the same issue. So bringing it up as something unrelated to issue of race shows how much you don't understand about race.



Subject: So afraid.
Date: Jul 25 2005 07:44:30 AM
Author: Ponyboy.

i was the one who originally pointed out that white people—like you—who say "race doesn't exist" never tell this to black people.


____________________________


It's not my problem that you assumed I was white. In actuality, you don't know how black people would respond. Anyone who spends any amount of time saying things like: "Black people would do this and black people would do that." - Obviously doesn't know very many Black people.

Maybe you need to recheck your: "Stuff I say to 'protected' white people" handbook. Because the disbelief in race isn't exclusive to "protected" whites. Even more to the point, how can you harp on "protected whites" when you have obviously not spoken to a black person about race or *anything* else important?

People who know and frequental discuss social issues with a wide range of minorities (this case: black) simply do not sum up an entire "race's" views on one subject. There are people out there that don't fit with your generalization. I guess that's hard to understand.



Subject: like equality, right?
Date: Jul 25 2005 07:23:43 AM
Author: bell hooks

ponybody said:
"Look, when you guys say race exists it's like...well there's really nothing else like it. It's a belief that you have not because it's been without a doubt scientifically proven, but because of what you see."


kind of like equality, right?

oh, wait—there's really no evidence for that one. or at least much less evidence than for inequality.

fuck, equality isn't even something you see. it's something you wish for.

but not something you could ever see or prove.



Subject: somebody's a little nuts
Date: Jul 25 2005 07:19:42 AM
Author: bell hooks

ponyboy said:
"You act as if black people are such violent savages that they'll beat you bloody for telling them race doesn't exist."


i was the one who originally pointed out that white people—like you—who say "race doesn't exist" never tell this to black people.

because black people would look at them funny.

because nobody except protected white people believe "race doesn't exist."

where the hell do you get the "violent savages" and "beat them bloody" stuff?

quit arguing with the voices in your head, foo'.



Subject: Limited-time offer
Date: Jul 25 2005 03:21:14 AM
Author: Karlheinz

Dear Mr. Steve:

I am an avid American consumer, and so am even more in the red than Jane Fonda's tampon. As such, I am not so much interested in your "Black or White, Everyone Loses" publication. However, I am VERY curious about "Secrets of The Man: Exploiting the Race War for Fun & Profit" (2nd edition).

Please bear in mind that I've been burned before. Why, just last year, I ordered Ronco's patented Machiavellian Prince-O-Matic. I wasn't completely satisfied, but fortunately I was able to return it for a full refund.

I've heard that "Secrets" can be mine for only five easy payments of $19.95 (plus shipping & handling). To which PO Box in Colorado Springs should I send my check or money order?



Subject: none
Date: Jul 25 2005 01:11:46 AM
Author: Luke TD

Good one on Diamond:

http://www.vdare.com/sailer/050724_diamond.htm



Subject: Black or White, Everyone Loses" movement
Date: Jul 25 2005 01:12:51 AM
Author: Anti-Semitic Steve



How do we begin with our "Black or White, Everyone Loses" Movement.

First we need to educate ourselves.
Re-learn.
Purge if you will.

Find some appropriate reading material.
Go to your usual reading room.
Then just let things flow.
The satisfaction is immense.
Try it and you'll see.
A.S.S. knows best.






Subject: A new movement.
Date: Jul 25 2005 12:17:06 AM
Author: Anti-Semitic Steve


Being positively inspired by this article and in furtherance of the greater good of all the races of mankind A.S.S. has started a new movement.

A movement that seeks to unite
black and white
in a fight
for the cause of right,
a'ight?

The man has kept us at each others throats for far too long. We must remember that the descendants of African slaves and the descendants of European slaves have everything to lose by fighting each other and that is just what those in authority would want us to do.

Therefore, we propose to call our movement "Black or White, Everyone Loses".

We have been shat upon for far too long. Now it's time we lobbed a turd or two of our own.

Join the movement!



Subject: Helpful hints for Ponyboy
Date: Jul 25 2005 12:47:55 AM
Author: Karlheinz

Ponyboy - you make some good arguments, but they're all rooted in ultra-emotional reactions to these guys.

For instance:

"I think any belief system that rejects change and progress should be routed or destroyed."

There are many, many people on the leftist side of the debate who would label you a Nazi for these beliefs.

You're probably right about the innate biases of people like Luke and "Dude," but simply saying "kill 'em all" won't result in anything worthwhile.

Argue only the facts, or else you're just giving your opponents ammo. And if they won't argue the facts, ignore them. People who are rational will see through the whole thing, and the people who aren't won't be convinced no matter what you do.

Also: "You act as if black people are such violent savages that they'll beat you bloody for telling them race doesn't exist."

There are such black people. I won't pretend they're typical (just as the KKK isn't typical of whites), but they're out there.



Subject: 2
Date: Jul 24 2005 11:25:04 PM
Author: Ponyboy.

So yes. I think any belief system that rejects change and progress should be routed or destroyed. And I see racism as a part of a greater fundamentalism. Your attempt to villify me, by emphasising the weight of my words is somewhat hypocritical. You have no right to be upset with my words when people like you would make decisions everyday to change the world in the favor of what you believe or to impress your dumb beliefs on everyone through action.

Mutliculturalism is naturally occuring. No one is forcing it along, yet you're the ones resisting. The only people who have expressed an inherant fear about this are white and they only want to perserve the white status quo. You don't care about "America", you care about "White America". And therein lies a very, very big problem.

That you don't see how this idea isn't so far from that of the KKK and Nazis. You actually feel like your belief should be accepted when it shouldn't. It's dangerous that you think otherwise.

You guys have to make up your minds, first anyone who doesn't believe "blank" is a liberal. Then if "the liberal" only bitches about how the world should get along and the conservatives shouldn't do this or that - they're pussies who're afraid of war. Then when they use stong language, ready to go to war for their ideals, they're violent and thirsty for blood.



Subject: 1
Date: Jul 24 2005 10:47:20 PM
Author: Ponyboy.

I think all racism should come to a halt, regardless of race. Someone below asked if any of us 'idealist' folks tell black people that there's no concept of "race". That's just a dumb question. Every bit as dumb as that other guy's "climate" analogy.

You act as if black people are such violent savages that they'll beat you bloody for telling them race doesn't exist.

I think a better question is if guys like Luke and "dude" cite to blacks how race exists and then give even more generalizing and racist reasons why it does. Because we all know you don't. It's good that you lack real conviction because your ideas are banal, backwards and not to be taken seriously.

Look, when you guys say race exists it's like...well there's really nothing else like it. It's a belief that you have not because it's been without a doubt scientifically proven, but because of what you see. It's based on perception. You see someone that's not like you, you label it as a unlike you and so that it?

No one can talk about how there can really be no genetic definition for race? You intellectual racists try and use science created by racists to prove your perception right and all science that proves the contrary is wrong because it's not asscioated with your view. Truth doesn't matter to you. You're going to believe what you want no matter what. (cont)



Subject: nowhere
Date: Jul 24 2005 03:43:28 PM
Author: Nobody

The Libertarians are as bad as the Liberals/Socialists/Commies when it comes claiming that race is merely a meaningless concept.

http://www.reason.com/hitandrun/2005/02/gillespie_hadit.
shtml />

The Libertarians also believe in completely unrestricted immigration.

And they don't care about the environment.

Fuck the Libertarians.

Just another bunch of utopian, egalitarian, brain-dead idealists.

Meet the new boss...



Subject: n/a
Date: Jul 24 2005 03:20:33 AM
Author: dude

Regardless of the particular methodological issues with <i>The Bell Curve</i>, it should be pretty obvious that racial/ethnic differences have at least some genetic basis. Look at almost every black-run polity/organization in the world, from Africa, to Haiti, to the inner cities in the U.S., to the infamously badly run King-Drew medical center in South Central L.A. Look at the chaos in South Africa since the Soviet-supported ANC has been in power. In the West since the latter part of the 1960s, governments have bent over backwards to help 'disadvantaged' groups, yet these groups still do not perform. Worse yet, the Great Society and related programs and policies have drastically increased crime, illegitimacy, and dependency in all ethnic groups.



Subject: no@spam.com
Date: Jul 24 2005 03:02:45 AM
Author: dude

I'd also add that many of the complaints regarding race as a classification system could be applied to almost *any* classification system. Bullsh** like "race doesn't exist because of continuous variation" is especially lame. No one would throw out (say) climate as a useful concept becuase of continuous variation...and there *are* a number of discontinuities in geographical human variation, such as the Himilayas, the Sahara Desert, and oceans.



Subject: Luke the weasel
Date: Jul 24 2005 03:13:40 AM
Author: Karlheinz

Luke: "More weasel words from your article"

Well, it's a summary, not an argument.

When you're faced with data that doesn't conclusively provide any particular interpretation, what exactly do you think they should say?

- Oh, in your case, I guess whichever interpretation fits your own particular biases. And if anyone disagrees, they're being a "weasel."

Personally, I trust people who use words like "maybe" or "might" where immensely complex subjects are concerned.

Especially when the burden of proof isn't on them.

Much more than, for instance, someone who takes an opinion from people who are "cherry-picked (...) from like-minded zealots" and proclaims it "THE DEFINITIVE STATEMENT" about anything.



Subject: no@spam.com
Date: Jul 24 2005 02:38:20 AM
Author: dude

Whoever said that there is no genetic race is frankly talking out of his ass. First of all two (say) East Asians are virtually guaranteed to be more similar to each other than an East Asian and (say) a native European. It is true that when looking at a single trait, or single piece of DNA, that it is possible to be more similar to someone of another race than of your own. For example, when looking at skin color, an East Asian, a Middle Easterner, a Latino, and a mulatto might all be about equally dark, but when other characteristics are taken into account, they can easily be distinguished. Even in the relatively few cases such individuals couldn't easily be sorted by eye, a DNA test looking at enough polymorphisms will distinguish them with virtual certainty.



Subject: curious Jeff
Date: Jul 24 2005 02:20:42 AM
Author: Jeff

Ponyboy, a few questions:

Are you in one of them youth gangs, son? That's a trick question. I don't care.

Do you feel that racists of all races must and will be stopped ("routed") at all costs, and "If that means violence then that's what it means"? (your words). Or should they at least be shunned, at the very least? You know, for the "good" of our naturally occurring multicultural society?

Or should I take your frequent use of the phrase "white status quo", and the context in which you use it to indicate that you consider "white racists" to be a special case? And one deserving of "special" treatment? If so, guess what: (cue drumroll)...............YOU'RE A RACIST!

Now, if you would like to admit it, then I can send you your own personalized "RACIST CLUB CARD". This will prove to people of all races that you are a certified racist, and deserving of the special treatment accorded to racists in our fine multicultural society. Are you white? Even better! You qualify for our special White Status Quo Ivory Club Card! Ten percent off at all participating white owned franchises (void where prohibited by lack of economic feasibility).

Of course I kid. It's just that I'd hate to see a fine strapping young mare and upstanding citizen such as yourself shunned, or even routed, just for your racist beliefs.




Subject: none
Date: Jul 24 2005 01:36:09 AM
Author: Luke

Virtually anybody can alter a post on Wikipedia. It is not a model of objectivity.

Heckman agrees with me in that he acknowledges the existence of the black/white IQ gap:

"Trying to understand the sources of black-white disparity will occupy me throughout my life."

He admits that there has been very little if any success in improving the black condition:

"despite many efforts to improve the circumstances of the African American population, a lot of progress remains to be accomplished."

Of course, he tries to spin it in a positive manner, implying that something can indeed be done.

Hell, he works for the Fed, and I'm sure that he wants all the tax-money he can get to conduct his ludicrous social experiments at our expense.



Subject: none
Date: Jul 24 2005 01:27:18 AM
Author: Luke

From your link, KH:

"Whether or not its major ideas deserve to be overturned is, admittedly, a matter of subjective opinion."

That's all it is. These guys are basing their arguments on subjective opinion, not objective scientific facts.

More weasel words from your article:

"other types of "intelligence" might still be able to show incremental predictiveness of real-world outcomes."

-Let's hang our hat on "might", why don't we?

A comprehensive review of even five years' worth of research on intelligence, genes, and the environment would be a massive undertaking, well beyond the scope of the present essay. Of necessity, some selectivity must be exercised.

-So the guy admits that he cherry-picked studies from like-minded zealots.

Your guy admits:
Some may question the appropriateness of examining a particular five-year period of research, rather than seeking a longer- term perspective, unbounded by arbitrary cut-off dates. In general, this may be prudent advice.

-But, of course, that doesn't stop him from doing so anyways.






Subject: