IN THE MAGAZINE

WAR IS HELL, AND HELL SUCKS

An Interview with Michael Norman Regarding His and His Wife Elizabeth’s New Book About the Bataan Death March

INTERVIEW BY JESSE PEARSON    ILLUSTRATIONS BY BARRON STOREY



The husband-and-wife writing team Michael and Elizabeth Norman has a new book out this month. It’s called Tears in the Darkness and, despite the maudlin title, it’s an incredibly detailed, meticulously researched, and compellingly written history of the brutal, brutal shit that went down in the Philippines during World War II. It’s about as clichéd to call a war book “harrowing” as it is to call a movie about a handicapped guy overcoming the odds a “triumph,” but I’ll be damned if this book didn’t harrow me out big-time. At moments you want to jump through the page and choke every Japanese soldier to death with your bare hands. But then, doing what seems impossible, the Normans put you inside the heads of the Japanese with enough clarity and reason to help you begin to understand where they were coming from too. It really works.

We spoke with Michael Norman recently about his book, but we also talked a lot about a lofty thing called narrative journalism and Michael’s own experience as a soldier during the Vietnam War.

Vice: Why write a book on the Bataan Death March and the American POWs now?

Michael Norman: My wife wrote a book called We Band of Angels, which is about the American nurses who were trapped on the little island of Corregidor after Bataan fell. She asked me to do some line editing on it—this was in 1998 or so—and I got really interested in the larger story of Bataan and what happened to the 76,000 men who were captured. That was the first time that my wife and I had worked together, and I said, “The process went pretty well. Why don’t we try to take on the larger story?”

And the larger story is what?

This was the worst defeat in American military history, and if you add the death march and the years of imprisonment to what happened, it’s one of the most gruesome war stories that I’ve ever come across—at least involving Americans. I had written a memoir about my own experience at war. I was a Marine in Vietnam in 1968. But I felt that my memoir really didn’t get at the truth of war.

What is the truth of war?

That it’s a shit storm.

Plain and simple.

So I wanted to see if it was possible to get the reality of war on a page. Since this is a really ghastly and ghostly story, I thought, Let me dip into this. Let me see if what I know to be true about war—which is mostly that as soon as the first shot is fired, everybody loses, that there is no such thing as victory—let me see if I can find a story that illustrates that. I’m not a polemicist. I’m a storyteller. This story, of Bataan, seemed to embody for me everything that’s true about war, including what’s going on in Iraq, Afghanistan, all of it.

There are also echoes of the debates going on now around torture of accused enemy combatants.

Sure. First of all, the Japanese were brutalized by their own army in their own training camps. I mean, they beat the living shit out of them. They even killed some of them. Many Japanese recruits committed suicide in boot camp. And then, of course, those people who were brutalized became brutalizers. They passed it on to their captives. They had a name for white Aryan Americans. They called them keto. Their military effectively dehumanized their enemy—us—much like we dehumanize our enemies. In Vietnam, we called the enemies gooks, from the old Chinese goo-goo, meaning “stranger.”

As Americans, we’re not used to hearing stories in which our soldiers are treated like animals, like the Other.

I agree with you. Most American war history is Amerocentric. But that still doesn’t get at whatever the truth of war is. I spent years looking for the truth of war. I wrote this book trying to find it.

There have been bits of it in literature before.

You get snatches of it, like in All Quiet on the Western Front. That book was a real model for us in writing this one. I also wanted to write a stripped-down narrative in much the way that John Hersey created Hiroshima.

What do you mean by “stripped-down”?

Take out the damn modifiers, get out of the way between the reader and the subject, just get the hell out of the way.

That seems like the way to do it. Did you find inspiration in any of the classic Vietnam texts like those by Michael Herr or Tim O’Brien?

I’m a great admirer of both of them. In Mike Herr, there are some composite characters, though it’s still a luminous work. Tim O’Brien of course is a terrific novelist and a very smart man. But to be perfectly honest, I didn’t see the truth of war there. O’Brien is an artist. Going After Cacciato is a terrific work of art.

How did you end up going to Vietnam?

Would it sound flip if I said that as a 19-year-old, I read too much Hemingway?

Not at all.

I played football in high school and I played a year of college ball. I was at Temple in Philadelphia and I was on a goddamn bus going down Broad Street and a couple of Marines got on the bus in their winter greens, looking ramrod straight. It was 1967 and the politics were raging in the street. But I looked at these guys and I thought, Man, not only do they look good but there’s just something about them. At the same time, I just wanted to get the fuck over there and see what was happening. I was an idiot! Just a complete fucking idiot.

But like most people in America at the time, you had no idea how bad it was going over there.

I was as raw as raw could be. In ’68 there were more than 15,000 casualties in Vietnam. My unit, the 2nd Battalion, 9th Marines, suffered a 25-percent casualty rate. In one battle, 125 of us walked up a road and 50 of us walked back.

So any preconceived notions that you had about war were dashed pretty quickly once you got there.

Within 72 hours.

A lot of the stories of the Vietnam War remind me of some of the situations in your book, especially concerning the frustrations of military bureaucracy and the disconnect between the leaders and the troops on the ground.

The great truism about military tactics, strategy, and planning is that as soon as the first shot is fired, all of that shit goes out the window. Did we have bad leadership? You betcha. I was there for 13 months. I had malaria for about 30 days and then they sent me right back into combat. In the last month that I was there, a 20-year-old lieutenant—honest to God, he had red hair and freckles—came into the field. The son of a bitch couldn’t read a map. I think that I had about ten days to go in-country at that point. I just remember thinking to myself—

“Don’t let this guy get me killed.”

Yeah.

That’s terrifying.

I should say that Marine Corps training has really changed since those days. Their training is really good now. The level of professionalism—assuming one wants a military, and that’s another subject—has gotten pretty good. I think that’s one of the consequences of an all-volunteer professional army.

Do you have a family history with World War II?

From every generation of my family and my wife’s family combined, somebody has been in uniform until my two grown sons. One of them did serve his country by going into the Peace Corps. He was in Togo, West Africa. Frankly, I think he had it a hell of a lot tougher in the field than I did. He slept in a mud hut, no running water, no electricity, no sanitation.

So your father served in World War II.

My dad was D-Day plus six or so. My father-in-law was also in the war, again after D-Day. He was in a tank-destroyer battalion. My father was an anti-aircraft officer. My wife’s grandfather fought in World War I. My maternal grandfather died in the 1930s of mustard-gas poisoning from World War I.

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Comments

Anonymous, on Jul 6, 2009 wrote: Reading really is the best way to learn to write better. Unless you are doing crazy, experimental stuff it’s the way to go.
	turd to your mother, on Jul 1, 2009 wrote: it’s definitely hard to fathom the japanese side of the war. they had kamikaze pilots. that is insane.
Anonymous, on Jun 29, 2009 wrote: Ok. In the Korean language Korea is prounounced "Han Gook" but America is prounounced "Mi Gook" ...how about them apples?
Anonymous, on Jun 26, 2009 wrote: This guy seems like the man
Anonymous, on Jun 26, 2009 wrote: Looks like a really interesting book, most people don’t know much about the Bataan death match so its a great topic to dedicate an entire book to
	TheDon, on Jun 26, 2009 wrote: Sounds like the Normans really did their research, you never see a WW2 book with any interviews/ opinions of the Japanese or Germans
	el guapo, on Jun 23, 2009 wrote: you can never read too much hemingway. well, if it made you go to vietnam then maybe you can.
	smokey robinson crusoe, on Jun 23, 2009 wrote: what is it going to be like for the next few generations of american children? both my grandfathers fought in world war II and one in the korean war as well. i’m sure most people my age are in similar situations. now no one wants to fight and fewer are needed for battle. will the american bravado tail off since less young people feel a direct connection with our military? it will be an interesting thing to watch over the next twenty years.
Anonymous, on Jun 22, 2009 wrote: That was an incredible interview. I’m getting this book tonight.
Anonymous, on Jun 22, 2009 wrote: its true, Ben Steele is a pretty heroic name.
Anonymous, on Jun 22, 2009 wrote: "I just wanted to get the fuck over there and see what was happening. I was an idiot! Just a complete fucking idiot." yep. I bet he really regretted that one
Anonymous, on Jun 22, 2009 wrote: I dunno about the book, but the illustrations are pretty sick!
Anonymous, on Jun 22, 2009 wrote: wow how mad would you be having a commanding officer who doesnt have a clue being in charge of your life.
Anonymous, on Jun 22, 2009 wrote: this guy is straight up and i like it, war is a shit storm, how can there ever be any winners. think im kinda glad that his sons didnt join the services.
Anonymous, on Jun 22, 2009 wrote: "Narrative journalism" is such a better term than some others I’ve heard it called. I won’t mention them here.
	Grant, on Jun 22, 2009 wrote: Hiroshima and All Quiet on the Western Front are both books I read in highschool and I’m very glad I was assigned them. AQOTWF was really an eye opener at that time, especially after having the gung-ho indoctrination until that time through public schools.
Anonymous, on Jun 22, 2009 wrote: I wrote the Anonymous comment on the origin of the word "gook". My email is irishtravellerboy@gmail.com. Any world map will show Korea as Han Gook. Also any automobile tire made in Korea will say in big letters on the side wall Han Gook.
Anonymous, on Jun 22, 2009 wrote: "incredibly detailed, meticulously researched, and compellingly written history" you not so smart now G.I.. From a BIG BAD KOREAN. I EAT MARINES FOR BREAKFAST.
Anonymous, on Jun 22, 2009 wrote: I think that guy is right. Gook was used in Korea which was before Vietnam. If you had stayed at Temple you would know that. Take that Baby killer.
Anonymous, on Jun 22, 2009 wrote: I believe that the word "gook’ originated during the korean War. Koreans refer to Korea as "Han Gook", thus we called them "gooks’. This then was used again during Nam as the term began to be used to describe most Asian people in a derogatory manner.
Anonymous, on Jun 22, 2009 wrote: This sounds amazing. I grew up in the 80s and we never heard of American defeats, only victories. We were, however, taught that the winners write the history books, and the older I become, the more I find out that is not necessarily true.
	shelby, on Jun 22, 2009 wrote: i don’t know if this is true but it seems like you have started doing more interviews with authors the past few years and at first i didn’t like it but it has become one of my favorite features when you do. the harry crews interview was so great i have read some of his books now and i may even give elmore leonard a shot now.
Anonymous, on Jun 22, 2009 wrote: I love reading interviews/articles like this. So amazing, so eye-opening.