Published December, 2009
DAVID SIMONINTERVIEW BY JESSE PEARSON, PHOTOS BY PHILIP ANDREWS
 David Simon is responsible for one of the greatest feats of storytelling of the past century, and that’s the entire five-season run of the television series The Wire . If that sounds like hyperbole to you, then you haven’t watched the show yet. It is the most intricate web of character, motivation, insight, action, repercussion, and emotion that’s ever been on TV, and it rivals the grand novels of the late 19th century, when novels actually, regularly, had scope. More hyperbole, but there you go. I and most of its fans are to The Wire as a Christian is to Christ or a junkie is to dope. It’s basically A FUCKING GOD. Too much hyperbole there, maybe. But you’re getting the point, right?
Before The Wire, David Simon was a reporter at the Baltimore Sun. During his time there, he wrote two meticulously researched and richly human books about his city. Homicide: A Year on the Killing Streets (1991) was the result of a year spent with the murder police of a town where murder seems to be a major mode of employment. The Corner: A Year in the Life of an Inner-City Neighborhood (1997, with writing partner Ed Burns) was the result of a year spent among the families, addicts, and dealers of one of Baltimore’s more infamous drug corners. Homicide resulted in the long-running cop show Homicide: Life on the Street, which was cool and everything, better than most cop shows, but also kind of just a cop show. The Corner resulted in an HBO miniseries that was pretty much a direct antecedent to what The Wire would end up tackling. After The Wire, Simon and Ed Burns, who is a former Baltimore cop and schoolteacher, adapted Evan Wright’s book Generation Kill into an HBO miniseries. It stands as the most effective document yet produced on the daily reality of the life of marines in the current Iraq war. And now, today, as I type this, Simon is filming his new HBO series down in New Orleans. It’s called Tremé, and it is said to take as its center the lives of local musicians. But I have a feeling that would be like saying that The Wire took as its center the Baltimore drug trade. Sure, it started there. But given Simon’s obsessions with the American city and the decreasing institutional value of life in this great country of ours, we’re pretty much guaranteed that Tremé will have the same reach and impact as The Wire. In other words, I wish I could be cryogenically frozen until the day this show debuts, because I can’t fucking wait. Simon recently spoke with Vice from the Tremé production offices in New Orleans. This is the longest interview we’ve ever run by a long shot, but come on. It’s the guy who made The Wire. You’re lucky the entire issue isn’t about him. Vice: I don’t know if the people who set this interview up for us related this anecdote to you, but you and I actually had an interesting run-in last year. I was waiting to get into a Pogues show at Roseland in New York City and—
David Simon: The fucker who cut the line. Yeah. Exactly.
The guy with Secretary of State’s Disease.
That’s the guy. I was right next to you, right ahead of you. I’d noticed it was you after I realized that multiple strangers were coming up to the guy behind me and saying things like “Thanks” and “I love your work.” Then I looked behind me and saw a Homicide: Life on the Street Season 5 jacket and was like, “Fuck. That’s David Simon.” Next thing I knew some guy was cutting in front of us and you unleashed on him. You asked him if he thought he was the Queen of England. Well, just don’t cut the line. You know? I found that guy afterward. Did you really?
Yeah, after we got our tickets I walked past him. We were both going to be on time for the concert. That was the thing. I said to him, “Was it worth it?” He just eye-fucked me. He didn’t seem to really understand.
Then later on we were both backstage after the show. Oh, really? What was he, some kind of record-label guy or something?
I don’t know who he was, but it was crowded backstage, and I was back there to say hi to the people I know in the band. The last thing I wanted to do was to make it about me or him. So I wasn’t going to pursue it. I was very scrupulous about not carrying it on with him then, but yeah, when I passed him before the show began, I was like, “You’re in. I’m in. The people who were behind me are in. What the fuck?” I hate that shit. I’m a little embarrassed about how profane that moment got, but hey. Shit happens. I loved it. I was like, man, he really fucking walks it like he talks it. I was happy.
I didn’t fight the guy or anything. I wasn’t going to swing first. That wouldn’t have been right. Well, I had your back.
And I also would have ended up getting thrown out of a concert that I had— A good reason to be at. Right. So I’ve always been curious about the way a season of The Wire would be structured before shooting. Can you outline, even really roughly, the process of scriptwriting?
There would be a series of planning sessions. First, at the beginning of every season, we did a sort of retreat with the main writers, the guys who were going to be on staff the whole year. We’d discuss what we were trying to say, but we were really having a current-events/ideology/political argument. The writers didn’t all think the same. We weren’t in lockstep on the issues of the day, whether it was the drug war or public education or the media. So we had to discuss the issue as an issue first. Never mind the characters, never mind plot. A lot of the people who came to write for The Wire were not from a traditional TV-writing background.
If there’s anything that distinguishes The Wire from a lot of the serialized drama you see, it was that the writers were not from television. None of us grew up thinking we wanted to get to Hollywood and write a TV show or a movie. Ed [Burns] was a cop, and then he was a schoolteacher. There were journalists on the writing staff. There were novelists. There were playwrights, too. Everyone began somewhere else. That probably made all the difference.
Well, we weren’t cynical about having been given ten, 12, 13 hours—whatever we had for any season from HBO. All of that was an incredible gift. The Godfather narrative, even including the third film, the weak one, is like… what? Nine hours? Yeah, about nine hours.
And look how much story they were able to tell. We were getting more than that for each season. So goddamn it, you better have something to say. That sounds really simple, but it’s actually a conversation that I don’t think happens on a lot of serialized drama. Certainly not on American television. I think that a lot of people believe that our job as TV writers is to get the show up as a franchise and get as many viewers, as many eyeballs, as we can, and keep them. So if they like x, give them more of x. If they don’t like y, don’t do as much y.
See all articles by this contributor Anonymous, on Mar 9, 2010 wrote:
Thanks for the interview. Good stuff. | | Anonymous, on Jan 26, 2010 wrote:
In my opinion, The Wire is the most brilliant and compelling piece of filmed media ever created. Dave Simon is a genius - can’t wait for Treme. | | Anonymous, on Jan 18, 2010 wrote:
Best. Vice. Article. Ever. | | Anonymous, on Jan 17, 2010 wrote:
Many thanks for producing this article. It’s much appreciated!
Best,
Tom | | Anonymous, on Jan 13, 2010 wrote:
That’s your retort? You said the opposite thing? | | Anonymous, on Jan 13, 2010 wrote:
"...but it trumps lying about who I am five times to make it seem like other people agree with me."
does not trump* | |
| vice, on Jan 12, 2010 wrote:
Hey, I’m just the website guy, not the interviewer. Maybe looking at the IP address that sits next to every one of these comments in my viewer and pointing out a string of identicals was a little insecure, but it trumps lying about who I am five times to make it seem like other people agree with me. Tootles! | | Anonymous, on Jan 7, 2010 wrote:
I just found this interview, but I gotta say... it’s pretty sad/funny when a professional journalist feels the need to do an IP check on critical, non-abusive comments. Insecure much?
P.S. The criticism is entirely valid, so, yeah. | | Anonymous, on Jan 1, 2010 wrote:
Although we frequently get bogged down in criticism and disappointment (what fun and how interesting would political commentary be sans our bitter bitching about everything?), we should, once in a while at least, take a step back and recognize where positives actually do exist. So I’ll spin one and claim that this article, whether Simon likes it or not, illustrates one...and I’ll gladly turn it on its head.
While I’m perhaps even more cynical than Simon is, even I have to admit that cynicism is itself nothing more than a byproduct of frustrated hope and, ultimately, a sign one still possesses that hope and has not swallowed the cliched "bitter pill" of despair. In fact, I would go so far as to opine that the fervor of one’s cynicism is directly proportional to the depth of one’s hope. Despite the disgusting turn of events in recent years (including the last year, which was a bitter pill to swallow indeed...irrespective of your political leanings), which Simon accurately describes and more than adequately lambastes (kudos), he still created The Wire and makes his cynical statements in the above article because he maintains the belief that his creations might actually make a difference...and is perhaps more than a little disappointed that they didn’t produce immediate results. Otherwise, why bother? Let him try to argue I’m wrong.
He dons his cynicism goggles and perceives and belittles these archetypal stories in which "in the end [the protagonist] is recognized as just a goodhearted rebel with right on his side, and eventually the town realizes that dancing’s not so bad" as nothing more than intentionally and maliciously crafted societal anaesthetics. Maybe he’s right and they are actually nothing more than an attempt to foster complacency and acceptance...maybe they do seek to use our hope against us...to placate and manipulate us with it, thus proving us naive and doe-eyed and easily cowed...but that is simultaneously their folly, because these stories paradoxically perpetuate, exacerbate and epitomize our hope. If we were at the point as a society when it was time to crush or abandon all of "it", these stories would fade and die, we’d cease to believe them, the world around us would turn grey and movies like Wall-E (yeah yeah, I admit, I unabashedly loved it...*wipes tear from eye*) would fail to raise a lump in our collective throat AND Obama would have failed from the get-go, not been given the opportunity to give us a mixture of somewhat failures and somewhat successes over the past year. His message would have fallen on deaf ears in 2008 and nobody would be disappointed and frustrated right now no matter who won in November 2008 and where that might have it put us. His proffer of hope and promises of change and his failure to deliver perfectly...irrespective of where your beliefs fall on the politcal spectrum...would have been meaningless before they were even uttered and attempted. The reality is, our reliance on him and our collective cynicism faced with his failures evidences that we are at the crossroads of hope: We cannot remain here forever and must at some point choose despair or action. The choice looms, and if Obama or some other will not or does not help us choose the difficult path towards progress because mindlessly dilly-dallying in the intersection of status quo seems most profitable, then we’ll seek another...and eventually, we’ll find him/her...I guarantee it (that’s hope talking).
So yeah, Simon is right in some sense: It’s all a farce and a game and a ploy and the meanies are winning, but he’s also so utterly WRONG it pains me to think that some may take his words as gospel, because he does himself, his own frustrated and unadmitted hopes (and ours) a disservice by promoting despair. Hope may not put a roof over one’s head or food on one’s table or prevent attacks against innocents or prohibit Wall Street abuses or create jobs or fix race relations or force politicians to adhere to their campaign promises, etc., but it’s NOT useless. Never that. Somewhere, someone is motivated by hoipe to do those things...sometimes, hope motivates us to find and elevate someone who can...and once in a while, magically, hope motivates us to do so for ourselves and we become that person. In the end, the fact remains that we still believe that the dream will never die (and Simon’s irritation and creative endeavors implicitly admit it), and though the Lion sleeps tonight, all evidence still points to the fact that the dream has stubbornly refused to lie down beside him. As long as the spark remains, the conflagration awaits...hopefully not quite as patiently as "they" seem so sure it will (and only as long as we let it).
So today, the birth of a new year and decade, renew your hope...revitalize your refusal to succumb to despair...because we have work to do...and no, it’s not useless.
And above all, DANCE (it’s not so bad).
:-)
Happy new year all.
-Blotter | | Anonymous, on Dec 30, 2009 wrote:
SHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIT
| | Anonymous, on Dec 30, 2009 wrote:
Great interview and FU to anyone who disagrees!... What the heck.. that logic works for the rethuglicans and white trash teabaggers. | | Anonymous, on Dec 29, 2009 wrote:
I’m not from Kansas, but I agree that this interview was lacking. Sycophancy doesn’t make for a very good interview. Next time just let Simon write an op-ed. | | Anonymous, on Dec 29, 2009 wrote:
"created a permanent underclass wholly dependent on free shit from the government or crime as a way of surviving."
So if we ended all social programs for the poor then there would be less crime? I bet there would be even more crime.
yeah some people take advantage, but a lot of social programs help people who actually need it too.
You fail to see Simon’s larger point. Capitalism, education, democracy has all been institutionalized (capitalism by the republicans, education by the democrats, and democracy by both) with negative results for the individuals and society
I’m feeling you and there’s a lot of truth behind what you’re saying, but history has also proven that unfettered capitalism also leaves a permanent downtrodden lower class that resorts to crime. | | Anonymous, on Dec 29, 2009 wrote:
having worked in a number of "public/government" positions david simon could not be more right... particularly about the drug war - shameful the whole charade -- of course as he notes follow the money who is making the real money in the drug war????
also shameful how not one single actor (since it was primarily men) was nominated for an emmy/golden globe ridiculous some of the best acting ever!!! | | Anonymous, on Dec 28, 2009 wrote:
Yeah, I don’t get it... to be a "good" interview you have to challenge your subject? How about the idea of making them comfortable enough that they’re willing to sit longer, talk longer, divulge more? This isn’t Meet The Press, jackass. | | Anonymous, on Dec 28, 2009 wrote:
Simon disparages city institutions, but fails to note that in Baltimore, those institutions are all controlled by leftists, and the complete failure of these liberal-dominated institutions (see also Detroit, Cleveland, Philly and many more) has destroyed the inner cities and created a permanent underclass wholly dependent on free shit from the government or crime as a way of surviving. This is precisely the reason that having government controlling health-care would be a HORRIBLE idea.
Simon is clearly a leftist reporter who just can’t bear to explicitly put the blame where it lies. Instead he blames "profit" and "capitalism" when it’s the only thing keeping (for now) this ship afloat.
I subscribed to HBO just to watch The Wire, and I still think that it’s a brilliant piece of literature in its own right. I believe it’s not only the best crime-related series of all time, but it is probably the most well crafted series of any kind of all time. Just think about the consistency from season to season, the character development, the scope of the presentation, the casting... but off-screen you have Simon ignoring his own world just because of his personal politics...he showed where education had failed, he showed where race-baiting greedy men like Clay Davis (and his antecedents such as Jessie Jackson and Al Sharpton) can turn victimhood into a nice living. He showed how government intervention in the marketplace (think of Stringer Bell’s problems trying to deal with construction) can restrict commerce and make it nearly impossible (even when you’ve greased so many palms) to undergo almost any project, even when you have the best intentions. He showed the shallowness of the Newspaper industry who can’t believe they are losing readers so rapidly, and yet care more about the lie and winning awards than they do about telling the truth... so why , in an interview, can’t he show that the governor of Maryland is a leftist like him? (you know, the one who clipped the crime stats and grandstanded about the drug war).
I’ll always love the Wire, and Simon et.al. took great pains to show this massive institutional failure in the big city, but don’t piss on people and tell them it’s rain. Liberals dominate these failed institutions. Public employee unions dominate these failed institutions. Why are they spared being named? Until then, Simon is just another in a long line of people waving a book in front of a corner and telling people that he has all the answers... | | Anonymous, on Dec 25, 2009 wrote:
you sounded stupid when you said twits | |
| A Taipan, on Dec 24, 2009 wrote:
You know what? Fuck you guys. I loved this. I read it twice. I focused on the message, and if you can’t see it, it’s your loss. Fucking twits. | | Anonymous, on Dec 24, 2009 wrote:
i actually like when interviewers/interviews inject some personality, opinion and "wow’s" and "uh huhs" into it. otherwise it just reads like a q + a done by a fucking robot. this, unlike other interviews i’ve read elsewhere, has some heart and soul. thank you. | | Anonymous, on Dec 24, 2009 wrote:
excellent interview, loved hearing about simon’s journalistic background of which i (shamefully) knew nothing about. | | Anonymous, on Dec 24, 2009 wrote:
I’m more interested in Simon’s point of view than his defense of it. It is good that the interviewer knew the show and Simon intimately and was a huge fan (which does not equal psychophantism), because this facilitated Simon’s ability to convey his points. I’m not interested in seeing him challenged, I’m interested in hearing what he has to say. | | Anonymous, on Dec 23, 2009 wrote:
the shame of the repeated ip comment abuser..... i suffer from that shame.
other than that, great interview. | | Anonymous, on Dec 23, 2009 wrote:
"I’m actually going to check out some books on Greek Tragedy at the library, and who the fuck does *that*?"
Seems silly to congratulate yourself on going to the library. I’m sure there are a lot of viewers of the show who will subsequently research the inspirations mentioned in Simon’s interviews, or were well-read enough to catch the references the first (or second, or third) time ’round. | |
| | | Anonymous, on Dec 22, 2009 wrote:
yeah, you’re right. fans should never interview the people of whom they are fans... wait, what? will you fucking morons stop coming here and commenting? and if you want to talk about editing, why did you have to tell us about your dandy uncle? who gives a shit? | | Anonymous, on Dec 22, 2009 wrote:
A quick perusal of the web will show better interviews with Simon. The interviewer is clearly too much a fan to make Simon work a little. However, I think Anon’s characterization of Simon failing to bring good characterizations to black is faulty. No show, in fact, no network has brought more work to black actors. Thank God. At least the motherfucker is trying and is putting his name on it. Furthermore, the wise Negro? Read Homicide. It’s in there. And I know Freamon and five other dudes like him. My uncle is no different except more of a dandy maybe. McNulty is Irish and drunk. Landsman fat and sloppy. Rawls closeted and prissy. They aren’t stereotypes, they’re people. Vice may not be the hallmark of good journalism but at least the editing is poor enough that you can see the repetition with which Mr. Simon uses to beat his drum. | | Anonymous, on Dec 21, 2009 wrote:
"What a lost opportunity. Not a single question challenging the Wire’s loose narrative threads Mr. Simon himself half cops to? Not a single question about Lester Freeman’s ridiculous characterization of the wise negro? Not a single question challenging the ability of a room full of middle-class white men to write fully-formed black characters?"
what’s it like to be a little bitch? | | Anonymous, on Dec 21, 2009 wrote:
Sick interview....anytime David Simon talks about The Wire it’s usually enthralling and thankfully the interviewer was a fan of the show. | | Anonymous, on Dec 21, 2009 wrote:
Man. What a lost opportunity. Not a single question challenging the Wire’s loose narrative threads Mr. Simon himself half cops to? Not a single question about Lester Freeman’s ridiculous characterization of the wise negro? Not a single question challenging the ability of a room full of middle-class white men to write fully-formed black characters?
And I thought the Spike Jonze interview was embarrassing. | | Anonymous, on Dec 19, 2009 wrote:
control+p, dingus. | | | Next 30 comments > |
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